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Thread: ND-110 computer

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pontus View Post
    I know a guy in the north of Sweden with _loads_ (and I mean _loads_) of ND hardware. He also has quite some knowledge with ND machines, he might be able to hook you up when you get there. I'll send you his email in a PM if you like (and if it's ok by him)
    Yes please, I would like that if it is ok for him.
    Torfinn

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tor View Post
    This thread seems to have sprung out of another one which I can't locate - but if it's a question of getting existing software over to a 5 1/4" floppy that an owner of an ND with a 5 1/4" drive can read
    The scenario here is one where the lucky ND user would have:
    a) one ND machine with 8 inch floppy drives, and floppies with ND software one them (ND test programs and more). This machine is working (Sintran III VSE J).
    b) one ND machine with a 5.25 inch floppy drive, this machine may or may not boot from the hard drive; this is unknown
    c) "blank" 5.25 inch floppies

    Quote Originally Posted by Tor
    then it's easy enough if you don't want to try creating the final format directly from the PC:
    1: Get an image copy of an existing floppy (e.g. from an 8" floppy).
    2: Copy that image over to a PC, Linux or BSD.
    3: Write the image to a standard, PC-format floppy (dd/ds, or, if the controller is a 3112, hd) with the 'dd' command.
    4: On the ND, do a device-copy of the PC format floppy to a file. Use device-copy set-floppy-format to be able to read the PC format (15b or 17b)
    5: Then copy the file back to a floppy in ND format.
    6: The floppy may now be read by the normal SINTRAN filesystem tools.

    3-5 can be replaced with variations of the theme.
    Step 1: which Sintran command(s) would I use to get a image copy of a floppy? The same as in step 4?
    Step 2 and 3: ok,. I know how to do that
    Step 4: ok, it sounds doable
    Step 5: how?
    Torfinn

  3. #13
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    Just a quick reply to say that I'll come back to the thread soon, it's just that these days I have to scan the forums quickly due to the workload off- and on-hours.
    -Tor

  4. #14
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    Today Pontus and friends ("carrying help" he called them) delivered the machine to me. A small correction first: the machine is in fact a ND-100/CX Compact, not a ND-110/CX. That doesn't matter; I'm still very happy.
    The key switch on the panel is broken (the key part have broken plastic "clips", and the metal part that connects "pins" on the switch is missing, so I don't know which pins connect in which position), but I can still operate the panel (hold the rightmost button down, press the leftmost button and the panel goes into advanced mode (OPCOM lights up).
    However, the hard drive doesn't boot Sintran, and I don't have any 5.25 inch ND floppies (yet) so I can't test the hard drive.
    My worklog page for the machine is here: http://sites.google.com/site/tingox/nd_3392-1669
    Last edited by tingo; September 23rd, 2011 at 12:29 PM. Reason: added link to worklog page
    Torfinn

  5. #15
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    As can be read in the latest post in this thread, I have no had my first try with creating a ND floppy on a PC (actually, and i386 machine running FreeBSD). Not a success, but a hope of success in the future.
    Torfinn

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    It seems Tor is busy these days. If someone else has any answers for my questions (se post #12), I would be happy if you could write a follow-up here.
    Torfinn

  7. #17
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    Sorry I didn't follow up yet - my $work load is now back to normal and I'm back to spending my spare time on forums and hobby projects but didn't get around to go back to the thread.

    (First, I made an error in an earlier posting.. I mentioned format 15b and 17b for PC floppies, I believe, but that should of course be 15b and 34b (for PC DD or PC HD formats). Can't edit the original posting, unfortunately.)

    "Step 1: which Sintran command(s) would I use to get a image copy of a floppy? The same as in step 4?"
    It's a little bit tricky to create file images of volumes (device images) using standard Sintran commands. The backup-system command has a device-copy subcommand which is normally great for copying device volumes (making image copies), unfortunately it's geared towards making copies from one device to another. So, making a disk image on a tape is easy.. and the other way around. It's even possible to make a disk image to a bunch of floppies, by treating the floppies as a tape volume (it'll prompt for new floppies). I think you asked about something like that earlier, but your system disk would need an awful lot of 8" floppies.. probably.

    The simplest method is probably to just write a program to do it. It can easily be written in Fortran, shouldn't be particularly long, it's just open floppy device, open file, read/write loop, close, close. Maybe a couple of mon144 (aka DeviceFunction aka MAGTP) calls. I could probably write a working program with my emulator setup even.

    The Sintran command 'device-function' can also do this though. But you would have to be a bit careful. First, use 'device-function read-format' to check the format of the floppy. Should be 0 or 17b. I don't think you have to use device-function set-floppy-format when reading a floppy, it handles it automatically if it's one of those two formats. But it doesn't hurt, of course. Then you would have to read a number of sectors, as much as you can fit, into memory. Use 'device-copy read-record <address> <number of words>' for this. Then dump the memory to file. You could use the Sintran command 'wfile' to do this. Use 'open' first, to open a file and create a connection number for 'wfile'. Then use device-copy read-record again, it'll remember where you left off. Now it's simpler if you 'wfile' that chunk of memory to _another_ file, instead of trying to append to the first one. So close the first one, open a new one, then write. You can always piece together the parts after you copy the files to a PC if you want an image on the PC, if you want to write a new floppy the pieces come in handy as is (see next step below).

    You can fit up to 64 kwords into memory at the time - possibly 128kwords (256KB) if you have 2-bank background segment enabled.

    So, if you're careful and do the steps correctly you can copy with only Sintran commands.. but it's slightly tricky.. that's why I always used to make my own programs for such things, back when I worked with ND computers. Do you have the Sintran Commands manual, or the Sintran Reference manual? It would help with the parameters for those Sintran commands I mentioned.

    "Step 5: How? (Then copy the file back to a floppy in ND format." The reverse of the above.. with Sintran you would first prepare a floppy with device-function set-floppy-format, device-function format-floppy, then use Sintran commands 'open' and 'rfile' on each file, with 'device-copy write-record'. Then next file.

    Or, again, with a program to do it for you. Those Sintran commands could be turned into a script-command to do it all as well, with the help of 'mode' and 'jec' (job execution control), but (particularly with 'jec') it's been so long since I was in front of an ND computer that I don't dare try to produce a working script without anything to test it out on. Anyway, as I said above I almost always turned around and wrote my own program to do file system interactions that took more than one or two Sintran commands to do.. for a programmer type like me it was always the more satisfying option. So I didn't use 'jec' very much ('jec' could extend 'mode' (script) files to use variables, and check for exit codes and the like).

    -Tor

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tor View Post
    (First, I made an error in an earlier posting.. I mentioned format 15b and 17b for PC floppies, I believe, but that should of course be 15b and 34b (for PC DD or PC HD formats). Can't edit the original posting, unfortunately.)
    Should that be format 17b and 34b? What I have been trying to create on the PC is format 17b.
    Torfinn

  9. #19
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    PC formats: Format 15b and 34b (double density/ high density) (Actually I'm not certain about 15b - but it must be that one. Better look up that table on ndwiki.org and check with known specs for PC 360K floppies.)

    ND formats: Format 0 and 17b (single density / high density)

    so it depends on what you want to write on the PC If you're trying to create ND format disks then 17b is the one you want. Use 1.2MB HD floppies.

    -Tor

  10. #20
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    Re: floppy formats - I had it mixed up. Of course it was PC floppy formats you were referring to!
    Fortran, I have FTN-2090I on the Satellite, but it seems that I'm missing something needed for getting it into 2-bank mode. From my notes:
    Code:
    MINI>@ftn
    
    WARNING; NO SUCH PAGE IN DATA BANK, PROGRAM STARTS AS 1-BANK
    NORD-10/ND-100 FORTRAN COMPILER FTN-2090I
    $exit
    That's it so far.
    Torfinn

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