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Thread: FreHD on Model II/12/16/16B/6000 - FIRST ATTEMPT

  1. #11
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    I think the route with the El-Cheapo (interface from Lo-Tech) offers a good starting point.

    The 80 Lines system bus of the Model II to 16B offers all the lines to create a 40 pens
    IDE connection.

    Just a double sided prototype board with a bus connector of the right size (who knows where to buy it) and
    a 40 pin male connector and 40 wires to connect with the bus.

    Use LS-Dos 6.3.1.a and take the drivers and software from the Model 4P project and give it a try.
    Yes, at first no autoboot, but if it is working, somebody would take a look to fix it

    It solves the problem of the need of a Model II HDC type 2.
    And a pcb can be easily produced if it is working. (I have seen beautiful examples on this forum)

    If I can find a good prototype board i'll surely give it a try.

    Just tell me what is wrong with this idea ?

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans01 View Post
    Just tell me what is wrong with this idea ?
    Would that approach work with Xenix, CP/Mor TRS-DOS? If not then that's what's wrong.

    If would also work for those, then nothing as far as I can see.

    There is very little LS-DOS support for the model II family. There are more CP/M and Xenix sources than LS-DOS.

    Didn't have time to look at the controllers I have or the tech reference last night. Will try to remember tonight.

    For what it's worth, I have plenty of type 2 controllers. I also have quite a few of the last type that talks to the mfm drives directly.

  3. #13

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    +1 to kb2syd

    A Model 2/16 <> Model 1/3/4. They are built for entirely different purposes and had entirely different and non-compatible software. The Model 2 series used TRSDOS, CP/M and Xenix (with the optional 68000 + memory card) and the solution has to skew to that. Not attempt to make a Model 2 series work like a Model 1. Even Tandy didn't do that.

    Myles

  4. #14
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    @kb2syd

    Would that approach work with Xenix, CP/Mor TRS-DOS? If not then that's what's wrong.

    If would also work for those, then nothing as far as I can see..
    I don't know, it's a project of Ian and I only made this suggestion.
    It depends on the availabilety of drivers.
    There is LSDos 6.3.1.a which should run on all the Models II to 16B
    This software is very close to LSDos 6.31. for Model 4P.
    There are drivers for LSDos 6.3.1, TRS Dos 6.2, CP/M and more which are patched to use for the Lo-Tech IDE controller.
    This is a good startingpoint to try to make them run on the Model II's
    If these drivers are suitable for the Lo-Tech IDE interface
    or can be patched must be checked after the hardware for the interface is made to work.[/QUOTE]

    Didn't have time to look at the controllers I have or the tech reference last night. Will try to remember tonight.

    For what it's worth, I have plenty of type 2 controllers. I also have quite a few of the last type that talks to the mfm drives directly.
    If you find some useful information please make it available to all of us, it could help a lot.
    If you have a spare Type 2 controller and do not need it, please let me know, i'am very intrested to buy it

    Hans.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRS-Ian View Post
    Thanks Mike, I also have that but it lacks HD drivers. It would be good to get it going so that it's consistent with other TRS-80s, but I think the first step is to get it running as a TRSDOS system.
    Ian, one of the three images Tim Mann put up, that I sent him back in 2000, definitely has the TRSHD2/DCT driver and the TRSFORM2/CMD formatter. I think it's the double-sided one. Hmm, the single-sided has a generic 'WD/DCT' but I'm not sure of the lineage of that file. Here's a screenshot from MESS in Model II mode of a CAT :0 (S,I) booted from the single-sided LS-DOS 6.3.1A image I sent to Tim (the double-sided image won't boot on MESS yet):
    ls-dos631-ss-cat-m2-20150304-.jpg

    I can send you the files pulled from the double-sided image; or you can do it by using xtrs with Tim's eight inch driver and booting in model 4 mode. I haven't rebuilt sdltrs for CentOS 7 yet, as I've not needed it since I migrated to C7, but I may have the files pulled out somewhere.

    At least you'd be working with familiar code and a familiar, if a bit buggy, OS. LS-DOS 6.3.1A for the 2/12 was not the most stable thing in the world. EDIT: m2-hd.zip contains the binaries for trshd2/dct and trsform2/cmd, as well as the commented source code from the LS-DOS 6.2 sources.

    EDIT: Here's what an attempt to boot the double-sided image looks like..... Error 05H is Data record not found during read. It does this even if I abort the sysgen. It may be that the trs80m2 MESS can't handle double-sided; I've not debugged to that level yet. And setting up MESS with two drives, then trying to pull a directory from the DS disk yields 'Directory read error' but it works fine from the sdltrs/xtrs Model 4 mode with the xtrs eight inch driver.
    ls-dos631-ss-cat-m2-20150304-3.jpg

    EDIT: Ah, I did rebuilt SDLTRS for C7..... here's a cat of the LS-DOS 6.3.1A DS image Tim pulled from the physical 8-inch disk I sent him in 2000:
    ls-dos631-ds-cat-20150304-1.jpg

    But do note that those drivers are from LS-DOS 6.2, and thus are not 6.3.1 date format aware; you'll need to run DATECONV on the resulting HD.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by lowen; March 4th, 2015 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Better screencap, double-sided image errors, sdltrs M4p DS cat.
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  6. #16

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    Here is what I have in the tech ref for the model 6000 HD. It is only for the last type of controller, but the ports and theory of operation is the same. Still looking for the docs for the type 2 controller.


    Here the are (I hope without too much advertising)
    http://wikisend.com/download/119618/m6000HD Part 1.pdf
    http://wikisend.com/download/612138/m6000HD Part 2.pdf
    Last edited by kb2syd; March 4th, 2015 at 08:59 AM.

  7. #17

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    The m6000HD Part 2.pdf file as I downloaded it just contains carpet cleaning suggestions. ?!

    The El-Cheapo approach might be interesting for Model II (or 12 w/ card cage option) owners, but would be kind of pointless for 16/6000 owners unless somebody writes Xenix drivers for it, in my opinion. The great advantage of FreHD is that it emulates original Tandy hardware at the interface level, so no special drivers are needed. Just having an emulated HD for LS-DOS might satisfy some folks, but the main point of the 16/6000 is to run Xenix on the 68k processor. (Was there any non-Xenix commercial software that used the 68k as a coprocessor?).

    So, experimenting with an El-Cheapo like card might be a fun project, but this particular thread is focused on tweaking FreHD to work with the II/12/16/6000, using existing hardware.

    Now, if it turns out that there's a significant number of II/12/16/6000 owners out there who want an emulated HD but can't find original HD controller cards in order to use FreHD, then maybe somebody would like to roll up a new plug-in card that's register-compatible with the original HD controller cards. That would be an interesting item. It's the sort of project I'd consider doing if I didn't have so many other projects in progress.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by NF6X View Post
    The m6000HD Part 2.pdf file as I downloaded it just contains carpet cleaning suggestions. ?!
    Fixed it I think. That's what you get for a free service.

  9. #19

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    Looks good now. If it breaks again, I could host the files on my Dropbox or something.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb2syd View Post
    Here is what I have in the tech ref for the model 6000 HD. It is only for the last type of controller, but the ports and theory of operation is the same. Still looking for the docs for the type 2 controller.
    From my perusal of the LS-DOS TRSHD driver source, it appears that LS-DOS is not taking advantage of the interrupt capabilities of the WD chipset. However, the schematic shows pretty clearly that the HDINTRQ from the WD1010 is wired into the CTC for interrupt mode 2 vector generation. Since Tim Mann's WD1010 code was written primarily to do the programmed I/O that the M3/4 use, it may be that the HDINTRQ handling is either nonexistent or not well-tested.

    So, Fred, Ian; how does the FreHD firmware handle HDINTRQ and are IRQ's generated at all? TRSDOS (and the Xenix z80ctl program) may use the HDC's interrupt capability in ways that the M3/4 DOSes do not. Not having a working HDINTRQ would still allow the initialization to work, if it uses programmed-I/O, but then perhaps the driver uses the interrupt facility after it tries to boot.

    EDIT: From the 2.14 sources, I see the following line in release/pic/trs_hard.h:
    Code:
    #define TRS_HARD_INTRQ			0x01 /* not emulated */
    so I'm taking that at face value.

    And thanks, kb2syd, for posting those pages of the 6000 SM.
    Last edited by lowen; March 4th, 2015 at 10:05 AM.
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    Bughlt: Sckmud
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