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Thread: Which RT-11 Monitor?

  1. #1
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    Default Which RT-11 Monitor?

    I recently purchased the components to put together a tiny PDP-11/23 system. I have an 18 bit double wide backplane with a KDF11-A CPU and a M8059-KP memory board with the full 128K words / 256K bytes of memory. I have an Emulex UC07 SCSI interface with a 32MB hard disk and a 100MB Zip drive. I have the 32 MB hard disk as DU0: set to boot RT-11 XM and I have the Zip drive as DU1: set to boot RT-11 SJ. Once I've booted from DU0: I can issue the BOOT DU1: command to boot from the Zip drive.

    I've been booting RT-11 XM from DU0: because I thought that monitor would make use of all the memory that I have. I wondered if RT-11 SJ would only use the first 64K words / 128K bytes.

    Today, I tried to run ADVENT from my DU0: under RT-11 XM and got an "insufficient memory" error. For the heck of it, I booted from my DU1: into RT-11 SJ and tried again. This was successful, and the ADVENT game ran fine. Obviously, RT-11 XM uses up too much of the memory, and there's not enough room for the ADVENT game.

    So here's my newbie question: Does RT-11 SJ use all of my available memory? Is RT-11 XM only for those 22 bit systems that can have several megabytes of memory? For my small system, where I do not anticipate doing anything more than one thing at a time, is RT-11 SJ sufficient?

    Thanks very much for listening. Any advice will be welcome.

    smp

  2. #2
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    Default

    I now have used the SHOW MEMORY command in each of the RT-11 monitors.

    RT-11 SJ:
    Code:
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS
    -------   ------   -----
    160000    IOPAGE    4096
    155654    DU         554
    144646    RMON      2307
    001000    ..BG..   25555
    RT-11 XM:
    Code:
    --------EXTENDED MEMORY--------
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS   TYPE
    --------  ------   -----   ----
    17760000  IOPAGE    4096    HDW
    01000000  MEMTOP
    00176200  ......   98752
    00170000  SL        1600    PVT
    00160000  DU        2048    PVT
    
    -------LOW MEMORY-------
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS
    --------  ------   -----
    157434    DU         114
    144646    RMON      7595
    110644    USR       2321
    001000    ..BG..   18386
    So I see that RT-11 SJ is reporting only on what appears to be low memory. Pretty much as I thought. RT-11 XM is reporting on both low memory and also extended memory. I see RT-11 XM report the IOPAGE in the same location, with a longer address, and I see the correct top of memory for my 18 bit system.

    I am being confused by the USR area in low memory being 2321 words, and the large area in extended memory called "......" having 98752 words.

    I guess I don't know why ADVENT won't run under RT-11 XM.

    Any advice or enlightenment would be most welcome.

    smp

  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smp View Post
    I now have used the SHOW MEMORY command in each of the RT-11 monitors.

    RT-11 SJ:
    Code:
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS
    -------   ------   -----
    160000    IOPAGE    4096
    155654    DU         554
    144646    RMON      2307
    001000    ..BG..   25555
    RT-11 XM:
    Code:
    --------EXTENDED MEMORY--------
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS   TYPE
    --------  ------   -----   ----
    17760000  IOPAGE    4096    HDW
    01000000  MEMTOP
    00176200  ......   98752
    00170000  SL        1600    PVT
    00160000  DU        2048    PVT
    
    -------LOW MEMORY-------
    ADDRESS   MODULE   WORDS
    --------  ------   -----
    157434    DU         114
    144646    RMON      7595
    110644    USR       2321
    001000    ..BG..   18386
    So I see that RT-11 SJ is reporting only on what appears to be low memory. Pretty much as I thought. RT-11 XM is reporting on both low memory and also extended memory. I see RT-11 XM report the IOPAGE in the same location, with a longer address, and I see the correct top of memory for my 18 bit system.

    I am being confused by the USR area in low memory being 2321 words, and the large area in extended memory called "......" having 98752 words.

    I guess I don't know why ADVENT won't run under RT-11 XM.

    Any advice or enlightenment would be most welcome.

    smp

    .VRUN ADVENT
    Should run the adventure under RT11XM

    In the single job monitor the USR (User Service Routines) are usually swapped in and out of memory as needed. These routines open and close files, so typically a program does not use these all the time. You can make the USR resident in RT11SJ at the loss of 2KW of memory for fast access. Or choose to have it temporarily overlay the program itself which is slower and may require some positioning care to avoid conflicts with the data structures needed for file access.

    For the extended monitors (RT11XM, RT11ZM) many programs can run in virtual space, which is allocated from the "……" segment, from which they can get 32KW of memory (or more) for direct access. The USR is kept resident in low memory and the Resident Monitor is larger, so this decreases the ..BG.. low memory available for special utility and user programs. You have to choose what works best for your situation, but given how easy it is to boot alternate monitors it is rarely a hardship.

    In general my guide to the variants of RT11 is as follows.

    RT11SJ, SB - Minimal monitor and overhead if your programs handle interrupts directly and you want the lowest latency.

    RT11FB - A bit more functionality (two programs at once), but still fits into 28KW.

    *** These three types of monitors only can only manage 28K-30K of memory. However, some applications could use extending memory mapping directly e.g. Fortran IV Virtual Arrays or VM Handler.


    RT11XM, ZM - You have programs that need more memory space, such as virtual program overlays or data arrays. More overhead due to context switching.

    TSX+ Not RT11, but can use the majority of utilities, packaged and other RT11 developed software. Multiuser, but still able to do some real time programming.

    Jerry
    Last edited by wa2flq; November 22nd, 2017 at 04:28 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Thanks very much, Jerry, for the hint, and also for the detailed explanation.

    I guess I must have other problems, though, because when I say VRUN ADVENT, I get ?UCL-F_File not found SY:UCL.DAT. Now I'll have to investigate why this is happening...

    Thanks again, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

    smp

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smp View Post
    Thanks very much, Jerry, for the hint, and also for the detailed explanation.

    I guess I must have other problems, though, because when I say VRUN ADVENT, I get ?UCL-F_File not found SY:UCL.DAT. Now I'll have to investigate why this is happening...

    Thanks again, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

    smp
    The UCL is a tool to that allows the user to determine how to customize command line interpretation (CLI). See chapter 13 in AA-5281E-TC_Introduction_to_RT-11_Aug91.pdf.

    SET CCL NOUCL then try it again. If ADVENT.SAV is not on the DK: drive, specify the location explicitly VRUN SY:ADVENT or VRUN DU1:ADVENT.
    If that doesn't work post the contents of SHOW ALL and SHOW COMMANDS. My CLI is set DCL, CCL, NO UCL, NO UCF.
    Also if you have a STRTXM.COM file (for RT11XM), it is loaded at bootstrap and may define some of the (myriad) RT-11 settings.


    Did I mention that RT-11 is a highly configurable operating system. While it lets you get very close to the PDP-11/LSI-11 hardware, it can be quite powerful and sophisticated.

    Happy Gobble Gobble to you as well.

    Jerry

  6. #6
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    Default

    Hi Jerry,

    Thanks again for all your attention and effort.

    I'm starting to think that you are using a different version of RT-11 than I am. My version is 5.03.
    When I type SET CCL NOUCL, I get ?KMON-F-Invalid command.
    Based on what you were saying in your post, I tried SET CLI NOUCL, and I got ?KMON-F-Invalid command.
    When I type SHOW COMMANDS, I get ?UCL-F-File not found SY:UCL.DAT.
    I tried SET CCL ? to see what the form of the command should be, and I got ?KMON-F-Invalid command.
    I tried SET CLI ? and I got ?KMON-F-Invalid command.

    Here is the text of SHOW ALL:
    Code:
    .SHOW ALL
    
    RT-11XM (S) V05.03
    Booted from DU0:RT11XM
    
    USR   is set NOSWAP
    EXIT  is set SWAP
    KMON  is set NOIND
    TT    is set NOQUIET
    ERROR is set ERROR
    SL    is set OFF
    EDIT  is set KEX
    KMON nesting depth is 3
    Global .SCCA flag is disabled
    
    PDP 11/23 Processor
    256KB of memory
    FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
    Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
    Memory Management Unit
    Parity Memory
    60 Cycle System Clock
    
    Device I/O time-out support
    System job support
    FPU support
    
    Device    Status          CSR     Vector(s)
    ------    ------          ---     ---------
      DD      Installed      176500   300 304
      DL      Not installed  174400   160
      DM      Not installed  177440   210
      DU      Resident       172150   154
    
              DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU2: is set UNIT=2, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU3: is set UNIT=3, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU4: is set UNIT=4, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU5: is set UNIT=5, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU6: is set UNIT=6, PART=0, PORT= 0
              DU7: is set UNIT=7, PART=0, PORT= 0
    
      DW      Not installed  000000
      DX      Not installed  177170   264
      DY      Not installed  177170   264
      DZ      Not installed  000000
      LD      Installed      000000   000
      LP      Not installed  177514   200
      LS      Installed      176500   470 474 300 304
      MM      Not installed  172440   224
      MS      Not installed  172522   224 300
      MT      Not installed  172520   224
      NC      Not installed  000000
      NL      Installed      000000   000
      NQ      Not installed  174440   120
      PI     -Not installed  000000   000
      RK      Not installed  177400   220
      SL      Installed      000000   000
      SP      Installed      000000   110
      VM      Not installed  177572   000
      XC      Not installed  173300   210 214
      XL      Installed      176500   300 304
    
    TT  (Resident)
    DU  (Resident)
        DU0 = SY
        DU1 = DK
    MQ  (Resident)
    LD
    SL
    SP
    XL
    DD
    LS
    NL
    19 free slots
    
    Job  Name  Console Level State    Low    High  Impure
    ---  ----  ------- ----- -----    ---    ----  ------
     0   RESORC   0      0   Run     000000 110644 124222
    
    No multi-terminal support
    
    ------- Extended Memory --------
    Address   Module    Words   Type
    -------   ------    -----   ----
    17760000  IOPAGE     4096.   HDW
    01000000  MEMTOP
    00176200  ......    98752.
    00170000  SL         1600.   PVT
    00160000  DU         2048.   PVT
    
    ------ Low Memory -------
    Address   Module    Words
    -------   ------    -----
    157434    DU          114.
    121706    RMON       7595.
    110644    USR        2321.
    001000    ..BG..    18386.
    
    No LD units mounted
    
    
    .
    Thanks again!

    smp
    Last edited by smp; November 24th, 2017 at 11:31 AM. Reason: ...added more command tries...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Chicagoland
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    Default

    Hi SMP

    For RT-11 V5.4 use the following.

    1) Make sure the ADVENT.SAV and its files are on the DK: device.

    2) Enter the following:

    Code:
    
    
    .R VBGEXE
    Program? DK:ADVENT.SAV
    Welcome to Adventure!!  Would you like instructions?
    >Y
    Somewhere nearby is Colossal Cave, where others have found fortunes in
    treasure and gold, though it is rumored that some who enter are never 
    seen again.  Magic is said to work in the cave. . . . .
    Make sure you use the device, name and filetype for ADVENT as shown above.

    I tested this on:
    RT-11XM V05.04 F
    Booted from DU0:RT11XM

    RT11 V5.6 introduced new features and new Monitor types even though it
    was a "point" release. The VRUN command was added and it simplified
    the older process above.
    Sorry for the confusion.

    Jerry

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Bedford, NH, USA
    Posts
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    Default

    Thanks a million, Jerry. That worked for me. I really appreciate all your attention.

    smp

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