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Thread: Intel C4004 based Prolog card?

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuci View Post
    I was guessing it was an Proglog OEM board made for DTC. Thank you for taking the time to go through that documentation. In the meantime, I am trying to see how I can read the 8316A. Looks like you can read it as a 2716 with the pinout here.
    Do note that the CS lines are mask programmable. They look to be high in the schematic. The needed information is right in the fold that didn't get printed well. The pin connections on the chart show the CSx as being gnd but if I read the schematic, it looks like they need to be +5V, The 1702A slots would be with C8=0 and the 8316 would be with C8=1.
    Do note that the wiring is quite different than a 2716. Are you using this particular reader or some other EPROM reader?
    If so, you might want to go to the data sheets for each to make sure you have it pinned out correctly.
    Be careful looking at things, The intel data book list addresses from A0 to A10 while the schematic list A1 to A11. I suspect that is to match the 4008 pinout labels.
    You might want to trace the address lines from the 4008 to the 8316. The pins numbers are not shown in the picture as they are in the fold. The numbers that are there are for the diodes and not the device pins.
    There may be some address scrambling to better align with the 1302s. Intel shows the Address to Pins:
    A0 - 5
    A1 - 6
    A2 - 7
    A3 - 8
    A4 -9
    A5 -10
    A6 - 11
    A7 - 12
    A8 - 1
    A9 - 2
    A10 - 3

    Add one to match the A1-A11 of the schematic.
    Dwight

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slob View Post
    Nice lookiní i4004 ya got there, Iíll give you $50USD and a plastic 4004 for it because the lid is crooked... Glad that you intend to get it working instead of having it sit in a display case.

    Iím done with the HW of my 4004 and 4040 boards but am still pondering how to write the firmware needed. I think that I have a trustworthy assembler.

    Interesting, the only 4008/4009 pair I have is one plastic, one ceramic also. My 4289ís are all ceramic.
    Now, don't go cheating him like you were doing him a favor. Even though the gold dot, grey trace, aren't as rare as the black dot ones, it is still not anywhere near as cheap as the P4004.

    I have confirmed my assembler in at least two ways that created working code. I've used it to reassemble code for the SIM4-01 programming functions. The results match the working code I had in the original EPROMs that came with my board. I've also use it to write an EPROM copy program, not just read/write code of the original.
    I've also used it with my simulator ( possible that both were wrong the same way ) but it does match the operation of the complex "Maneuver Board" code that I've been debugging.
    The only thing that one might no like is that forward reference labels have to be predefined ( just the name, not the address ) because it is a one pass assembler.
    It is still not hard to use.
    Dwight

  3. #13

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    I was looking at the table you referred to for the 8316. I see that they show different connections for the 8216A and the 8316. The Intel catalogs show they have the exact same pinout. I'd worry a little about using either table. I'd use a 2716 setup and make my own adapter, based on the Intel catalog pinouts for the 2716 and the 8316.
    Dwight

  4. #14

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    “Now, don't go cheating him like you were doing him a favor. Even though the gold dot, grey trace, aren't as rare as the black dot ones, it is still not anywhere near as cheap as the P4004.”

    I hope that everyone understands that I was just kidding! But those do go for crazy money. Somewhare I have a National Semiconductor 4004 in ceramic, which is surprisingly rare, but not necessarily that valuable.

    My 4004/4040 project is waiting on three (maybe 4) items:
    1. A ZIF socket so I can complete my 25V adapter for my tl866 prorammer, needed for 25v 2716’s
    2. 28c16’s, so I can speed up the burn and learn process
    3. Some free time
    4. Some parts to make a 2708 programmer (really, a 2708 would be a little more period correct for projects like these)

    Sadly, about 20 years ago I built a 2716 “promulator” that was downloadable, but I tossed/lost it. I also built a 2716 to 2708 copier that had a switch for the lower or upper half of the 2716. I’ve been looking for that...

  5. #15

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    I built a 2716 programmer to plug into the bus of my H89. I used a 5V to 24V module as I recall to make a boost to 29V that I regulated down to 25V. Now days you can buy a simple boast board from ebay for a few dollars.
    It had a simple transistor switch.
    It wouldn't take much to use something like a Blue Pill ( port B is 5V tolerant if used O.D. ). It can be run from a simple USB to 3.3V serial converter. It would be a relatively simple project.
    I'm wondering if I should make the pin holes to be able to use a 4040 as well as a 4004 on my PCB. I'll get 3 boards and only use one.
    Dwight

  6. #16
    Join Date
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    Thanks Dwight.

    I know Slob was kidding. I am aware that prices of these chips are crazy.

    I have a few EPROM programmers but nothing that will do this chip. I am in the information gathering stage so I will be very careful. I already asked Martin if his ME1702A programmer will read 1302s. He has not tried but he thinks there should be no issues. I trust him and will report back. I will be very careful with the 8316A as I understand the 8316E is different so there are variations even in the same chip code. The 8316E is supposed to be closer to a 2716.

    I won't be able to dig into this for a bit but I appreciate all feedback and discussion.

  7. #17

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    My understanding ( having worked at Intel for a while ) was that the 1302s were just 1702 dies that had some bad bits. At least I know they did that for 2716s, although, these were already packaged with EPROM lids. It wouldn't have been much to test them before putting on the quartz lid. They could then attempt to program them for the dedicated part. If they passed they lidded them. If they failed, it was only a lost package.
    The one I recall that was the most interesting was the 2508 Intel sold. They were really half bad 2716s. The A10 was to be tied high or low depending on which half was bad. The part I loved about this is that when the price of 2716s was under $4, they still sold the 2508s for $32. Good marketing I guess. For designs that specified the 2508, the fellow that bought the parts was just happy to get the part.
    Dwight

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuci View Post
    Thanks Dwight.

    I know Slob was kidding. I am aware that prices of these chips are crazy.

    I have a few EPROM programmers but nothing that will do this chip. I am in the information gathering stage so I will be very careful. I already asked Martin if his ME1702A programmer will read 1302s. He has not tried but he thinks there should be no issues. I trust him and will report back. I will be very careful with the 8316A as I understand the 8316E is different so there are variations even in the same chip code. The 8316E is supposed to be closer to a 2716.

    I won't be able to dig into this for a bit but I appreciate all feedback and discussion.
    Since you have the schematic and board, making an adapter to the 2716 is the simplest as you know the programmer can read 2716s. Just don't connect the programming voltage to anything. When I had my 2716 programmer, I'd adjust the regulator and have a switch on the side for the various 2732s and 2764s. Since then I have a programmer for them but the H89 was a major investment at the time.
    Anyway, reading the 1302 is no issue on the 1702A programmer. Even if they used 1702 chips instead of 1702A. They read the same.
    I was looking at my disassembler. It was written for an older Forth ( fpc a 16 bit code Forth ). I used a couple of features of fpc that are no longer the same on win32forth. I'll have to make some changes to the code. On the fpc it was easy to revector the terminal out to a file. On win32forth, it can be done but it is easier to just send to a file. I'll need to make some changes.
    Dwight

    Dwight

  9. #19

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    What you have is a DTC branded, Pro-Log designed, PLS-411 (attached) card. It differs from the PLS-401 (also attached) in that you can use a 2716 in the last slot.

    Pro-Log had a policy that if you bought hundreds (or thousands) of a certain card, you could manufacture that card in-house with Pro-Log's permission to save some cost. DTC did just that for their teletype terminal.

    How did you come about getting this card?

    Thanks,
    Flash

    Attachment 51688
    Attachment 51685

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,100

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashCorliss View Post
    What you have is a DTC branded, Pro-Log designed, PLS-411 (attached) card. It differs from the PLS-401 (also attached) in that you can use a 2716 in the last slot.

    Pro-Log had a policy that if you bought hundreds (or thousands) of a certain card, you could manufacture that card in-house with Pro-Log's permission to save some cost. DTC did just that for their teletype terminal.

    How did you come about getting this card?
    Thanks for the reply Flash. Dwight and I have been trading emails and he came up with the exact same model (PLS-411). I canít seem to open the attachments on my phone but iíll Try later on my PC. I am going to try to find any other documentation for it.

    This is a CPU board that came out of a DTC300/S daisy wheel printer/terminal. The original owner saved this board plus the power supply and some other mechanical parts hoping to eventually make something of it. Sadly, no other boards were saved or the card cage. This was the best board to save though

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