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Thread: Reproduction SIM4-01 set?

  1. #1

    Default Reproduction SIM4-01 set?

    Has anyone heard of anyone that knows anyone who is offering reproduction SIM4 01 set of boards? I4004
    SIM4-01, MP7-02 and MCB-410
    I know a few people here have originals but I probably won’t live long enough to find one for sale so I am looking at the reproduction route.
    I run a reproduction MIL MOD8 and, by golly, I don’t see how a real one could be any more fun than this, so I am fine with reproduction boards.

    Thanks

    Craig

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    UK - Worcester
    Posts
    3,212

    Default

    Didn't even know that project existed. Thanks for the pointer though.

    If I had known a while ago - I would have yet another project on my rather large pile!

    I still might obtain a copy of the PCBs and look to hunt out the 'unobtanium' parts over time though.

    Incidentally, I developed my own JavaScript emulator for this beast (see over at Forum->Technical Support->Vintage Computer Programming->8008 pure JavaScript Emulator). I have shaken most of the bugs out - and I find MONITOR-8 a really nice monitor - but development work has stopped at the moment due to other projects and lack of posts.

    Interested to know what software you run on it to keep yourself amused!

    Dave

  3. #3

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    I'm one with the setup.
    I'm still looking to get the assembler ROM code for the SIM4-01. I have all but one ROM that look to have good code. The fourth one is dead. I need a A0743 EPROM!
    I have the code to program 1702A but I'm looking for the code to do non-A. It wouldn't be hard to write as the only difference is the duty cycle and the port used to trigger the program pulse on the MP7 board. The non-A EPROM is A0542, to go with A0540 and A0541 that I have.
    Since the SIM4-01 has so little RAM, I wrote code to do stand alone copy of 1702As. It does it in two phases. I use the LEDs on the MCB-410 to sequence when to put the master and when to put the blank. If one has the SIM4-02 it has enough RAM and one can use the code in the manual.
    The schematics are in the manual. If you want I can take photo's of the top and bottom of boards. It shouldn't be too hard to make replicas.
    I've not seen anyone else that has the complete set of boards, that post to the MB.
    My MP7 is a -03 but as I recall it has a minor difference in the regulator circuit, compared to the -02. The MP7-01 only has circuits to do non-A 1702s.
    I've an assembler and simulator for the 4004 but they run in Forth. It uses win32forth but could be adopted for other Forths by modifications to the file I/O.
    I've made a board to run the Maneuver Board program but not finished stuffing the board. To many family projects! It uses too much RAM and ROM to run on the SIM4-01 but I believe it could run on a SIM4-02 with a little tacked on hardware for display and key switches. There is enough ROM space in 4K to write a serial I/O, instead.
    Dwight
    Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 5th, 2019 at 07:24 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Central VA
    Posts
    4,709

    Default

    Huh, yeah, I also didn't know about the MIL MOD8 reproduction! Another project to add to the list

  5. #5

    Default

    I've seen National 4004s on ebay for around $150. There have been some 4002-2s for under $20 each lately as well. 4002-1 are easy to come by. If anyone wants some 1702As I recently got a box of National ones cheap. I'll send a set of the three A054x coded to anyone that wants them for about $7.50 ( price of a mailer, need to check current price ) ( only for 4004/4040 projects though, not for chip collectors ). The A054x proms run the MP7.
    I have stuff on github at: https://github.com/prog4004/I4004-projects/
    I don't have everything there but I'll update it with other stuff later. In the Maneuver directory, you can see how my simulator is used.
    Dwight
    Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 5th, 2019 at 08:00 AM.

  6. #6

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    Oops! I should say, for the cost of shipping. I forget, Dave is in the UK. It might be cheaper in a smaller box.
    Dwight

  7. #7

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    Regarding the straight 1702 programming. I believe the mil mod mon8 has a lot in common with the sim8 and might further presume that the SIM8 had some portions of the programming lifted from the SIM4. So this may not apply....

    That being said, the mil mod monitor 8 doesn’t use a different hardware programming pulse generator for the 1702 to 1702A, it uses a software loop to determine the programming duty cycle.

    Regards

    Craig

  8. #8

    Default

    Dave

    I had many components for the mil mod8 hanging around but had to order most. They were not hard to find and I have extras for many of them in case someone else gets in a bind and can’t something. The board set comes with boards for both the 8008 and 8080. I suggest getting an extra ROM board so you don’t have to swap EPROMs when swapping processors.

    For those that want the boards or looking for the mother lode of MIL MOD information, here is the link to his website. https://va3ngc.weebly.com/repo-boards.html

    For anyone wanting to follow my experience with them here is my YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/c/helloworld0000

    As for what software I run, I have a pretty low amusement threshold. So a lot with tweaking the resident monitor, writing confidence tests, maybe a few games, but then I go right into interfacing to to things that couldn’t have been even conceived of back then.

    Regards

    Craig
    Last edited by candrews; November 5th, 2019 at 08:47 AM.

  9. #9

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    Dwight

    I need to dig deeper, but I was thinking I would go for the last revision of the boards. That may be misguided but I lived through the constraints of writing programs with 256 bytes of ram and 2 kbit of rom and, frankly, I prefer having more of each. So I was thinking the additional capabilities and flexibility of later revisions would be my preference. Sure, if this was just going to hang on my wall, the first version and earliest date codes would be important.

    What would be your thoughts for the most enjoyable system?

    Craig

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by candrews View Post
    Dwight

    I need to dig deeper, but I was thinking I would go for the last revision of the boards. That may be misguided but I lived through the constraints of writing programs with 256 bytes of ram and 2 kbit of rom and, frankly, I prefer having more of each. So I was thinking the additional capabilities and flexibility of later revisions would be my preference. Sure, if this was just going to hang on my wall, the first version and earliest date codes would be important.

    What would be your thoughts for the most enjoyable system?

    Craig

    The 4040 with a 4289 is more what your looking for. Both are Harvard architecture but the 4040, used with the 4289 can be used with some added instructions that allow the 4040 to write to program memory where there might be RAM as well as ROM. The 4008/4009 combination doesn't allow one to do that. The 4040 has the ability to expand both RAM and ROM beyond what the 4004 can handle.
    You do know that the RAM ( 4002-1 and 4002-2 ) for the 4004/4040 has special access that was intended for things like floating point exponent and such. It is difficult to emulated these RAMs with standard RAMs.
    One of the disadvantages of using RAM in the program space is that one can only read a value from code on the same page. That means that to read some location A to location B, you'll need to use up some RAM space on each page to read the data. Of course if you only intended to use that RAM space for experimental program space, you can always execute anywhere in program space. It is also possible to setup that RAM space for data only but that is better to just be in normal RAM space without the exponent status nibbles. Both can be done with the 4289 by clever decoding.
    The MOD4/40 has much of these features built in, that the SIM4-01 didn't. Still, you have to think in terms of program space and data space as separate, like a 8051 or 8048. Not that these couldn't have such mixing for development purposes with some clever decoding.

    The Maneuver Board code, that I've been working on ( not my original code ), runs a display, keyboard input as well as calculates range, distance, time of closest approach, absolute speed and direction for up to 10 targets. It uses a cordic algorithm to calculate sine and cosine, given angle information. It does all that in less than 4K of code ( not really all that well optimized ). 4K is quite a bit but the 4004/4040 is not really all that well an optimized processor. One has to do a lot of LIM xx dd, SRC xx for just about any operation not in the internal registers.
    Dwight

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