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Thread: Commodore CBM 2001-16N - BIG MESS!

  1. #41

    Default

    So, i did the measurements again. This time more precisely. Please see attached photos i have taken. Unfortunately i was not able to get the whole sweep on the screen. I used the SWP VAR Knob to zoom out as much as possible. To show you the full picture there is a part 1 (sweep starting on the left edge) and part 2 (you see the end of the sweep)
    Indeed, the chopped configuration worked for me best.

    Channel 1 is placed on the top half of the screen, right at the scale.
    Channel 2 is placed on the bottom half of the screen, right at the scale

    Measurement #1 (CH1:B3-9 and CH2:A5-13) gives me 2 square waves.
    Measurement #2 (CH1:B3-9 and CH2:A5-8 gives me only 1 square wave on the top. Whatever i tried - on Channel 2 i only get a flat line. I guess this confirms that the Video RAM is not being written on?

    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-13 part1.jpg
    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-13 part2.jpg
    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-8 part1.jpg
    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-8 part2.jpg

  2. #42

    Default

    The first picture shows what I expect to see with channel 2 on A5-13, coming from F1-6. Don't expect the processor running to look like the NOP generator. It is under software control.
    It would be good to know what the other scope shot conditions were?
    As for triggering, sometime it helps to trigger on a faster signal, like A7 or A8. Your sweep frequency was faster than I thought you should be using.
    I find it interesting that the scope does look to have a DC or AC trigger selection. This might be why the slow speed triggers are hard to get working. It may use an AC trigger.
    You'll most likely want to invest in at least one 10X probe. There are cases where the loading of a 1X probe will cause problems in analog circuit, such as the video. For most of the digital a 1X is fine.
    You should be able to see the 1MHz clock on the processor pins with the scope.
    Dwight

    Ops just reread your post. The ground wire attached to A5-9 would kill the signal to A5-8. It should not be there. It was likely there when it was using the external video board.
    The signal on A5-8 was a high. You describe it as a flat line, easily confused with a 0 level.
    Dwight
    Last edited by Dwight Elvey; February 12th, 2020 at 09:22 AM.

  3. #43

    Default

    Hello Dwight,

    i got 2 probes bundled with the scope. Both can be changed to 10x by a switch at the probe. But this only changes the Voltage reading, correct? I did play with it a bit but did not catch up the sweep better. When i further decrease the Time/DIV i only see a dot flying on the screen. I found the current setting with 5ms the best for shooting a photo.

    The signal on A5-8 was high, you are right! And after i cut the junmper (again) i now get a good signal. Looks revers compare to the A5-13. Is this what you expected to see?

    And yes, i measured exactly 1 microsecond at 4,5 VDC at the CPU Clock out (39)

    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-8 (JP cut) part1.jpg
    Scope CH1_B3-9_CH2_A5-8 (JP cut) part2.jpg
    CPU clock out Pin39.jpg

  4. #44

    Default

    Yes, it is what is expected. With the other video board, if it used the same address, you'd not want the onboard RAM to get onto the bus. With the wire jumpered, The onboard RAM can't be read.
    In any case, it looks like there is no issue with the address decoding. The only part we didn't see was the signal going to A5-11 and A5-2 used to cause a write to the RAM A5-8 would cause the RAM to read.
    The write signal is possibly missing but we are more likely looking at an issue with the code in the ROMs or that the processor isn't running somehow. Since the NOP generator is working it is more likely a problem with the code in the ROMs.
    Do notice I use the words likely. We just went down 3 levels of likely. Some riskiness in assuming a ROM failure but I'm somewhat confident that looking there would not be a waste of time.
    Can you program 2732s? and can you read 6332s?
    Dwight

  5. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
    Yes, it is what is expected. With the other video board, if it used the same address, you'd not want the onboard RAM to get onto the bus. With the wire jumpered, The onboard RAM can't be read.
    In any case, it looks like there is no issue with the address decoding. The only part we didn't see was the signal going to A5-11 and A5-2 used to cause a write to the RAM A5-8 would cause the RAM to read.
    The write signal is possibly missing but we are more likely looking at an issue with the code in the ROMs or that the processor isn't running somehow. Since the NOP generator is working it is more likely a problem with the code in the ROMs.
    Do notice I use the words likely. We just went down 3 levels of likely. Some riskiness in assuming a ROM failure but I'm somewhat confident that looking there would not be a waste of time.
    Can you program 2732s? and can you read 6332s?
    Dwight
    ok, great. So, i can move on to look somewhere else

    When i started troubleshooting this CBM i also looked deepy into the ROMs. The unit did not came with the original ROMs but with 2716s and 2732 EPROMs. The 2732s are using the adapter socket. I checked continuity on all units (except F10) and found a bad socket F8 which i already replaced.
    I bought a USB GQ-4x4 programmer and some new EPROMs. So, i was able to download the SW from all EPROMs and installed new EPROMs with the BASIC 4.0 Software from zimmers.net (901465-23, 901465-20, 901465-21, 901447-29, 901465-22 and last week also 901447-10).
    From my point of view the ROMs should not cause the problem. At least i would expect anything on the screen when using the Pet Tester. I already used the Pettester by David for the EDIT D8 and also the Pettester1 and 2 for D9. Always the same result - no change at the screen at all. Please see my initial post where i noted all these initial steps i did.


    What are your thoughts about the Data Bus Receivers? Could there be a conflict when connecting the CPU Data Bus?
    I watched the interesting troubleshooting Video from Frank: https://youtu.be/K9QTPhSdhJY

    The symptoms are similiar. The type of pattern on the screen is pretty much the same and stays when i remove the CPU.
    I have checked E8 and E7 with my logic probe. There is some activity at E8 SD0 - SD3 but nothing on BD0-BD03. There is almost no communication at the E7 pins. I did not check with the scope yet - got a busy day today....

  6. #46

    Default

    I guess the next thing might be to start looking at the data bus right after reset. I might have some suggestions when I've had a chance to look at the schematics a little longer.
    Dwight

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Toronto ON Canada
    Posts
    7,296

    Default

    You say that removing the A5-9 jumper gave a signal on A5-8 but when I asked whether removing it made any difference you said "I did not see any difference yet when i cut that jumper."

    So, does that mean that the scope signal on pin 8 changes but the screen remains the same?

    Did you check for continuity of the data signals between F10 and E11?

  8. #48

    Default

    There is another thing to check before moving on.
    If you put your NOP generator back in there are a number of experiments we can run.
    First is to look at pin 20 of each EPROM. We should see a short negative pulse every full address cycle ( by short, I mean 1/16th of an address cycle ).
    Next, since you have an EPROM programmer, we can create an EPROM with a checkboard pattern. With that we can test the data path bus buffers. If you don't know how to create the file for the check board, I can help there. ( I'll get you started and you can finish it with something like notepad ).
    Dwight

  9. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
    You say that removing the A5-9 jumper gave a signal on A5-8 but when I asked whether removing it made any difference you said "I did not see any difference yet when i cut that jumper."

    So, does that mean that the scope signal on pin 8 changes but the screen remains the same?

    Did you check for continuity of the data signals between F10 and E11?
    Hi Mike, yes exactly. I did not notice any change on the screen nor the scope - but at that time i was still measuring noise.
    Meanwhile i checked continuity between F10 and E11 - all lines are good.

    @Dwight - yes, i can see a very short negative pulse on pin 20 on all ROMīs. Itīs a 23ms sweep at 3,8 VDC
    Unfortunately i have no idea how to program the checkboard pattern i would need your help for that.

  10. #50

    Default

    I've made a file 4K bytes in size. It is in Intel HEX format.
    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HEX
    Cut and paste it into a file called 55AA.HEX
    Program it into whatever EPROM you are using 2716 or 2732
    Dwight

    [code]
    :1000000055AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AAF8
    :1000100055AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AAE8
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