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Thread: Got my IIci working. Yay.

  1. #1

    Default Got my IIci working. Yay.

    8 megs and a network card. It'll be interesting to see how well System 7 runs under Basilisk II on NetBSD, once I have more RAM in it. Assuming Basilisk II will run stuff directly on the CPU and use a hard drive partition directly. It'll be like A/UX, but with a more useful Unix. :3

    Crappy Youtube vijeos:

    First part (less interesting): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoIsaoJyb88

    Second part (still boring, but maybe less-so):
    -- Lee
    If you get super-bored, try Muh Crappy YouTube Channel
    Looking to Buy/Trade For: Mac IIci hard drive bracket and one bottom rubber foot, Hercules-compatible card + monochrome monitor (preferably IBM 5151), Multisync VGA CRTs
    May Be Interested In Acquiring: 040 or 601 card for Mac IIci, Decent NuBus video card, Commodore PC(286+), PC-era Tandy stuff, Aesthetic Old Serial Terminals

  2. #2

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    Okay, so I have to ask: why run System 7 on Basilisk II on NetBSD as opposed to just running System 7?

    The '030 kinda predates virtualization, so it's going to be strictly software. In that case you might as well run A/UX. It actually does work pretty well with well-behaved Mac apps.
    I use my C128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse
    Machine room updated for 2019!: http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicHasClass View Post
    Okay, so I have to ask: why run System 7 on Basilisk II on NetBSD as opposed to just running System 7?
    99% just for luls, but....

    If I were to try to rationalize it (ha), it would be nice to have a modern TCP stack and services on one side, but Apple's AFP implementation running over real RS-422 localtalk (assuming basilisk can do this, I haven't really looked too deeply) on the other side talking with my IIgs. I am apparently too dumb to get AFP working over a PPP/null modem connection to a linux box. And without external clocking with a localtalk xcvr, I don't think the IIgs serial port will operate faster than 19.2k.

    I think it will run the code natively on the 030 won't it? I was thinking like the 020 was the last one that wasn't virtualizable. But maybe I am full of poo; I haven't actually tried it heh.

    Then again, if A/UX supports NFSv3........ Hmmmmm.
    -- Lee
    If you get super-bored, try Muh Crappy YouTube Channel
    Looking to Buy/Trade For: Mac IIci hard drive bracket and one bottom rubber foot, Hercules-compatible card + monochrome monitor (preferably IBM 5151), Multisync VGA CRTs
    May Be Interested In Acquiring: 040 or 601 card for Mac IIci, Decent NuBus video card, Commodore PC(286+), PC-era Tandy stuff, Aesthetic Old Serial Terminals

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bladamson View Post
    I think it will run the code natively on the 030 won't it? I was thinking like the 020 was the last one that wasn't virtualizable.
    The 030 includes an MMU, so it can do virtual memory (paging, etc.). But ClassicHasClass is referring to hardware-assisted virtualization (like VT-x and AMD-V), which facilitates the use of virtual machines. I'm not sure that ever came to the 68K iine.

  5. #5
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    It’s been on my to-do list to see if that “native execution” mode of BasiliskII actually works on NetBSD but circumstances have inevitably kept me from having both a suitable working 68k Mac and the time/motivation to do it simultaneously. I’m not sure anyone actually has made it work, at least for a long, long time. The ancient document that talks about that mode mostly concentrated on native execution as an Amiga OS thing but did kind of mention NetBSD in passing; at the time that doc was written NetBSD was at version... 1.4-ish?

    For IIgs networking the thing you want is a LocalTalk-Ethernet bridge. They used to be pretty cheap, the dumb-as-rocks ones they sold for getting LaserWriters on Ethernet will work fine with NetaTalk 2.x on the other side.
    My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcbrine View Post
    The 030 includes an MMU, so it can do virtual memory (paging, etc.). But ClassicHasClass is referring to hardware-assisted virtualization (like VT-x and AMD-V), which facilitates the use of virtual machines. I'm not sure that ever came to the 68K iine.
    FWIW, extensions like VT-x are a patch around the fact that as initially designed by Intel the x86 ISA had user-mode instructions that could change the processor state in ways that could break virtualization. (See this article, specifically the bits about "sensitive" unprivileged instructions.) 68k CPUs after the 68010 don't have this problem (IE, there are no sensitive instructions they can't be automatically trapped for child processes) so they've supported virtualization all along. The aforementioned A/UX ran MacOS under what we'd call "virtualization" today, so in principle it should be possible to pull off the same trick under NetBSD...

    That said, reading that old tech doc of BasiliskII it looks like Native CPU is dependent on real addressing, IE, you can't use the MMU to put MacOS into its own virtual memory space. (Again, should be technically possible to do, but they didn't implement it.) Apparently NetBSD, at least back then, *did* support the necessary real addressing mode while trapping MacOS' priviliged instructions but it sounds like a real dancing-bear sort of situation.

    Again, I'd love to know if this still works. I have found, though, very little evidence that anyone's actually gotten it going since about 20 years ago, so my guess is that the support for this particular edge case is pretty horribly bitrotted.
    My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
    It’s been on my to-do list to see if that “native execution” mode of BasiliskII actually works on NetBSD but circumstances have inevitably kept me from having both a suitable working 68k Mac and the time/motivation to do it simultaneously. I’m not sure anyone actually has made it work, at least for a long, long time. The ancient document that talks about that mode mostly concentrated on native execution as an Amiga OS thing but did kind of mention NetBSD in passing; at the time that doc was written NetBSD was at version... 1.4-ish?

    For IIgs networking the thing you want is a LocalTalk-Ethernet bridge. They used to be pretty cheap, the dumb-as-rocks ones they sold for getting LaserWriters on Ethernet will work fine with NetaTalk 2.x on the other side.
    I've been reading some old docs (translating the cuneiform, as it were), and apparently native execution works (or worked, in some old version) on an 030 or higher, but you can't compile basilisk with pthreads or it won't work. So that means no sound, which is unfortunate.

    I been eyeballing an AsanteTalk on the junkbay, but ima waiting until I pay myself at the beginning of the month and refill my old computer funtime allowance before I pull the trigger. 128Mb ram, too, after which I'll probably have to buy the bmow rom simm just to disable the memory check so it'll boot faster than 10 minutes lol. It sits there a good little while just on 8 megs!
    -- Lee
    If you get super-bored, try Muh Crappy YouTube Channel
    Looking to Buy/Trade For: Mac IIci hard drive bracket and one bottom rubber foot, Hercules-compatible card + monochrome monitor (preferably IBM 5151), Multisync VGA CRTs
    May Be Interested In Acquiring: 040 or 601 card for Mac IIci, Decent NuBus video card, Commodore PC(286+), PC-era Tandy stuff, Aesthetic Old Serial Terminals

  8. #8
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    Definitely document the whole thing if you get it working. Other than the tantalizing snatches here and there it almost seems like a feat accomplished only during The Time of Legends.

    You won't regret the Asantetalk. When I got my IIgs I had *zero* boot media for it, but it was almost completely painless to bootstrap everything and get running using the A2SERVER package. (I didn't use a Raspberry Pi, just the install script to get it going on a generic Debian laptop. It's very convenient how it fetches and sets up a full working net-bootable install of GSOS and includes tools like Asimov for imaging floppies.) It's good for setting up a working NetaTalk for old Macs, too, since it handles the tweaks necessary for old-school Ethertalk setup for you.
    My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs

  9. #9
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    Another alternative to the AsanteTalk is the Shiva Fastpath. I like that better than the AsanteTalk (I have both) but the Fastpaths are harder to find, and more complex to set up.

  10. #10

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    It's the AsanteTalk that supports MacIP, correct? And the AsantePrint that does not? I always get them confused.

    There was a guy on eBay selling a whole bunch of Fastpaths for $50 each not too long ago. A mix of v4 and v5 (v4 can be upgraded to v5 with a ROM swap.)

    There's currently a Cayman GatorBox on eBay, but it's way too pricey for me.

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