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Thread: Is this scenario possible?

  1. #1

    Post Is this scenario possible?

    Hello,

    I have an old Sanyo MBC-1000 machine with quite a number of old floppy disks. Is it possible to perhaps somehow purchase a newer 5.25 drive (with an ATA or IDE interface), that I might then connect to a newer computer, and load some sort of CP/M emulator from Linux or Dos, or something like that? And then, read the disks from the newer computer? Or would the disks only be able to be read from an old Sanyo computer? Are drives from different eras very different, or is a floppy drive a floppy drive? (Though I understand the interface would be different)

    Thank you for any and all feedback,

    J

  2. #2
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    There are no 5.25" floppy drives with an IDE/ATA interface to my knowledge. There were some SCSI 5.25" floppy drives but those were limited in what formats they could read.

    There is one option that should work without the use the Sanyo computer. The shareware 22Disk lists the MBC-1000 format as supported. 22Disk requires a IBM PC compatible system with a floppy controller and standard floppy drive. If you have one or know of a friend with one, reading Sanyo disks should be fairly easy if the disks are still in good condition. 22Disk isn't the only software to read CP/M disks on MS-DOS machines but it is easy to find and easy to use.

    The drives Sanyo used were basically the same as the drives used by PC compatibles.

  3. Default

    To follow up, once you get the disks read using 22Disk or something else, then, yes, it's straightforward to use the extracted files with a CP/M simulator, of which there are several to choose from.

  4. #4
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    Where are you by the way?

    I'm not sure about the legal technicalities, but 22DISK was once shareware, but I believe that it is no longer. The system that you might find comes with a file of pre-set disk definitions, but there are various forms of this, and the version you get might not have this one. Quite possible to add it to the file, and someone here who has it would pass on the information.

    As stated, if you get the files off a disk, then they are normal files, and any text, or data, could well be directly useable on your PC. Any CP/M .COM files would NOT of course, and if you needed to run any of these you would need either something like 22NICE, from the same company as 22DISK, which allows a PC to run a CP/M prog (might not work on a WinDoze machine, but it works fine on a DOS one), OR you could use a CP/M emulator package in which case you may need to put the CP/M files into disk image files so that they can be accessed. I still use my Amstrad PCW (CP/M Plus) and I also use the 'Joyce' emulator on my main PC which uses .DSK images, I also use 22DISK for moving files back and forth between various machines.

    Update - I've looked in different versions of the definitions files that I have, and the MBC-1000 is included in them all. Shown as being the same disk format as the MBC-1150.

    Geoff
    Last edited by GeoffB17; August 2nd, 2020 at 05:17 AM.
    Vintage Devices: Epson HX-20/TF-20, Amstrad PCW 8256 (with extras), 386 and 486 PCs with 5.25 and 3.5 floppy drives, Pentium 75 with Roland LAPC-I midi card

  5. #5
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    Using a newer drive and a newer computer to read old floppy disks. Yes, this is entirely possible.

    In fact, if you want to, you can connect a floppy disk drive to power and either a FluxEngine or a Greasleweazle and connect it to your modern computer via usb and read the floppies that way.
    Normal caveats apply: the floppy drive in question must be able to read the floppies (a 40-track drive won't read 80-track floppies, a single-sided drive will not read both sides of a double-sided floppy and so on) and you must have a program that understands the logical format of the floppies in order to extract / make use of the data on them. Like mtools, cpmtools and so on.

    After you have the files on your modern computer, there are a number of emulators that allows you yo run cp/m programs, for example.
    Torfinn

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by tingo View Post
    Using a newer drive and a newer computer to read old floppy disks. Yes, this is entirely possible.

    In fact, if you want to, you can connect a floppy disk drive to power and either a FluxEngine or a Greasleweazle and connect it to your modern computer via usb and read the floppies that way.
    Normal caveats apply: the floppy drive in question must be able to read the floppies (a 40-track drive won't read 80-track floppies, a single-sided drive will not read both sides of a double-sided floppy and so on) and you must have a program that understands the logical format of the floppies in order to extract / make use of the data on them. Like mtools, cpmtools and so on.

    After you have the files on your modern computer, there are a number of emulators that allows you yo run cp/m programs, for example.
    For things like FluxEngine or Geaseleweazle, you don't need to know the density but if you expect to use a computer with a controller, you need to know if it is FM or MFM as well. Not all newer controller support MFM.
    Dwight

  7. #7
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    cpmtools can easily the files in the image after creating the .RAW (Sector Dump) using these
    Definitions for cpmtools and libdsk. (I also included the flashfloppy definitions.)

    Code:
    BEGIN SAN1  Sanyo MBC-1000, MBC-1150 - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    INSERT 22DISK DEFINITION HERE
    END
    
    # SAN1  Sanyo MBC-1000, MBC-1150 - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    diskdef san1
      seclen 256
      tracks 80
      sectrk 16
      blocksize 2048
      maxdir 64
      skew 3
      boottrk 2
      os 2.2
    end
    
    # libdsk definition
    [san1]
    description = SAN1  Sanyo MBC-1000, MBC-1150 - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    sides = alt
    cylinders = 80
    heads = 2
    secsize = 256
    sectors = 16
    secbase = 1
    datarate = DD
    
    # flashfloppy definition
    [san1]
    cyls = 80
    heads = 2
    secs = 16
    interleave = 3
    bps = 256
    id = 1
    #rpm = 360
    rpm = 300
    rate = 250
    mode = mfm
    iam = no
    
    BEGIN SAN2  Sanyo  MBC-1250 - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    INSERT 22DISK DEFINITION HERE
    END
    
    # SAN2  Sanyo  MBC-1250 - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    diskdef san2
      seclen 256
      tracks 160
      sectrk 16
      blocksize 4096
      maxdir 128
      skew 3
      boottrk 4
      os 2.2
    end
    
    # libdsk definition
    [san2]
    description = SAN2  Sanyo  MBC-1250 - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    sides = alt
    cylinders = 160
    heads = 2
    secsize = 256
    sectors = 16
    secbase = 1
    datarate = DD
    
    # flashfloppy definition
    [san2]
    cyls = 160
    heads = 2
    secs = 16
    interleave = 3
    bps = 256
    id = 1
    #rpm = 360
    rpm = 300
    rate = 250
    mode = mfm
    iam = no
    
    BEGIN SAN3  Sanyo MBC-2000 - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    INSERT 22DISK DEFINITION HERE
    END
    
    # SAN3  Sanyo MBC-2000 - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    diskdef san3
      seclen 256
      tracks 80
      sectrk 16
      blocksize 2048
      maxdir 64
      skew 5
      boottrk 4
      os 2.2
    end
    
    # libdsk definition
    [san3]
    description = SAN3  Sanyo MBC-2000 - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25" - 256 x 16
    cylinders = 80
    heads = 1
    secsize = 256
    sectors = 16
    secbase = 1
    datarate = DD
    
    # flashfloppy definition
    [san3]
    cyls = 80
    heads = 1
    secs = 16
    interleave = 5
    bps = 256
    id = 1
    #rpm = 360
    rpm = 300
    rate = 250
    mode = mfm
    iam = no
    
    BEGIN SAN4  Sanyo MBC-3000 - DSDD 8" - 256 x 26
    INSERT 22DISK DEFINITION HERE
    END
    
    # SAN4  Sanyo MBC-3000 - DSDD 8" - 256 x 26
    diskdef san4
      seclen 256
      tracks 154
      sectrk 26
      blocksize 4096
      maxdir 128
      skew 6
      boottrk 4
      os 2.2
    end
    
    # libdsk definition
    [san4]
    description = SAN4  Sanyo MBC-3000 - DSDD 8" - 256 x 26
    sides = alt
    cylinders = 154
    heads = 2
    secsize = 256
    sectors = 26
    secbase = 1
    datarate = ED
    
    # flashfloppy definition
    [san4]
    cyls = 154
    heads = 2
    secs = 26
    interleave = 6
    bps = 256
    id = 1
    rpm = 360
    #rpm = 300
    rate = 250
    mode = mfm
    iam = no

    To extract the .RAW file from the .IMD file I use the following batch file.

    A.BAT
    Code:
    TD02IMD smbc1000.td0 > SMBC1000.TXT
    TD02IMD smbc1100.td0 > SMBC1100.TXT
    TD02IMD smbc1200.td0 > SMBC1200.TXT
    
    IMDA SMBC1000.IMD >> SMBC1000.TXT
    IMDA SMBC1100.IMD >> SMBC1100.TXT
    IMDA SMBC1200.IMD >> SMBC1200.TXT
    
    IMDU SMBC1000.IMD SMBC1000.RAW /B /E /D >> SMBC1000.TXT
    IMDU SMBC1100.IMD SMBC1100.RAW /B /E /D >> SMBC1100.TXT
    IMDU SMBC1200.IMD SMBC1200.RAW /B /E /D >> SMBC1200.TXT
    Then have a look at the SMBC1xxx.TXT file to see what it finds. What you are looking for is
    a Single Density Track 0, and remainder of tracks Double Density.

    IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
    IMD TD 1.5 8" HD MFM S-step, 2 sides ADV 19/10/1994 22:33:10

    8" CP/M 2.2 system disk for Sanyp MBC-3000

    DSDD 256 byte sector, 1-26, 1:1

    Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
    0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 = 3328 =0x0D00 = Track 0 = which needs duplicated to fill it out.
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    D DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE 5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5
    0/1 500 kbps DD 26x256
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE 5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5DE5
    1/0 D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
    This example has Track 0 Single density and will cause cpmtools problems. The easy fix is to just copy the Track0
    Bytes twice to fill out the first track as Double Density. Linux's DD command makes this easy.

    Code:
    $ dd if=MBC3000.RAW bs=1 count=3328 of=LBC3000.RAW conv=notrunc
    $ dd if=MBC3000.RAW bs=1 seek=3328 of=LBC3000.RAW conv=notrunc
    Now, the file LBC3000.RAW can be accessed with the SAN4 Definition.

    Code:
    $ cpmls -f san4 -D LBC3000.RAW
         Name    Bytes   Recs  Attr     update             create
    ------------ ------ ------ ---- -----------------  -----------------
    A       .SUB     4K      1 R  
    ASCII   .COM     4K      7 R  
    ASM     .COM     8K     64 R  
    BAR     .BAS     4K     16 R  
    BIOS    .ASM    12K     96 R  
    CBIOS   .ASM    12K     70 R  
    CHARTEST.BAS     4K      2    
    CHR$    .BAS     4K      2 R  
    CONFIG  .CNF     8K     62    
    CONMATE .COM    24K    190    
    CRC     .COM     8K     60    
    CVNSD   .COM     8K     44 R  
    DATA    .XXX     4K     15    
    DCOP    .COM     4K     19 R  
    DDT     .COM     8K     38 R  
    DDUMP   .COM     4K     17 R  
    DEBLOCK .ASM    12K     80 R  
    DEMO1   .DAT     4K      3 R  
    DEMO1   .GOA     4K     17 R  
    DEMO2   .GOA     8K     39 R  
    DEMO3   .GOA     4K     13 R  
    DEMO4   .GOA     4K     14 R  
    DEMO5   .GOA     4K     26 R  
    DISK    .COM    16K    106 R  
    DISKDEF .LIB     8K     50 R  
    DUMP    .ASM     8K     34 R  
    DUMP    .COM     4K      4 R  
    ECHO    .COM     4K      5    
    ED      .COM     8K     52 R  
    EDIT    .COM    24K    188    
    ERASE   .COM     8K     52    
    FD1     .COM     4K     15 R  
    FDUMP   .COM     4K     24 R  
    FORMAT  .COM     4K      6 R  
    GOAL    .COM    28K    217 R  
    GOAL    .HLP    16K    114 R  
    HANS    .BAS     4K      2    
    HANS1   .BAS     4K      2    
    HANS2   .BAS     4K      2    
    IM      .COM     4K      2 R  
    LINE    .COM     4K      6 R  
    LOAD    .COM     4K     14 R  
    MAC     .COM    12K     92    
    MCOPY   .COM    12K     87    
    MERGE   .COM    16K    110 R  
    MLOAD   .COM     4K     22    
    MM      .COM     4K      2 R  
    MOVCPM  .COM    12K     80 R  
    MRCV    .COM     4K      8 R  
    MTRN    .COM     4K      7 R  
    NULU    .COM    16K    120    
    NULUTERM.ASM     4K     23    
    NULUTERM.BAK     4K     23    
    NULUTERM.HEX     4K      3    
    PAGE    .COM     8K     58    
    PATCH   .COM    24K    172    
    PIET    .        4K      1    
    PIP     .COM     8K     58 R  
    PORT1   .COM     4K      2 R  
    PORT2   .COM     4K      2 R  
    PRINT   .COM     4K      2 R  
    PROTECT .COM     8K     58    
    RENAME  .COM     8K     61    
    S       .COM     4K     10 R  
    SBASIC  .COM    36K    275 R  
    SBRUN   .COM    32K    235 R  
    SC      .COM    12K     88 R  
    SD      .COM     4K     30    
    SID     .COM     8K     62    
    SORT    .COM    24K    162 R  
    STAT    .COM     8K     42 R  
    SUBMIT  .COM     4K     10 R  
    SWEEP   .COM    12K     92    
    SYSGEN  .COM     4K      8 R  
    TEST1   .BAS     4K      3    
    TESTCHAR.BAS     4K      3    
    TESTCHAR.COM     4K      1    
    TESTCHG .COM     4K      2 R  
    TIMER   .BAS     8K     37 R  
    TYPEL   .COM     8K     33    
    USQ     .COM     4K     15    
    VERIFY  .COM     4K      8 R  
    W-DATA  .DAT     8K     42 R  
    WORLD   .BAS     4K     23 R  
    XCHG    .COM     8K     58 R  
    XREF    .COM    12K     78 R  
    XSUB    .COM     4K      6 R  
    ZEX     .COM     8K     48    
       88 Files occupying    716K,     252K Free.
    And files copied to a folder with:

    Code:
    $ cpmcp -f san4 LBC3000.RAW 0:*.* ./mbc3000

    Larry
    Last edited by ldkraemer; August 4th, 2020 at 07:15 AM.

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