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Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
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    Originally posted by Timo W. View Post
    That was an easy question. You are basically saying they should not care about security if they don't have to. That's a very weird way of thinking.

    But it doesn't matter anyway, as they are liable. The forum is accessible also from Europe, so they have to fulfil the GDPR. Article 5 states:
    Or else what? You going to extradite me to Brussels to stand trial?

    Comment


      Originally posted by mbbrutman View Post
      maxtherabbit:

      We don't run this site for any specific person; we run it for a group. We make decisions based on what is best for the group. That group includes people who have poor security practices, such as reusing passwords.

      I'm sorry if HTTPS offends you or others, but in 2021 it is an industry best practice.
      It doesn't practically bother me. I don't even care to access this site from vintage systems. What I am arguing against is the notion that some sort of moral imperative exists to protect foolish people from the consequences of their actions. That ideal is destroying the entire western world

      Comment


        Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post

        It doesn't practically bother me. I don't even care to access this site from vintage systems. What I am arguing against is the notion that some sort of moral imperative exists to protect foolish people from the consequences of their actions. That ideal is destroying the entire western world
        You are entitled to your beliefs, but that is not what this thread is for. As an organization this is our decision, not yours. It is time to move on.

        Comment


          Originally posted by mbbrutman View Post

          You are entitled to your beliefs, but that is not what this thread is for. As an organization this is our decision, not yours. It is time to move on.
          Ok I'll drop it. Stay frosty outside 7-11

          Comment


            Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post

            It doesn't practically bother me. I don't even care to access this site from vintage systems. What I am arguing against is the notion that some sort of moral imperative exists to protect foolish people from the consequences of their actions. That ideal is destroying the entire western world
            Perhaps, but it's the world we have to live and operate in.

            I don't know much about GDPR or the California rules, only that they exist, and the cookie popup and other spam that afflicts every. single. site. on the internet is very annoying.

            But.

            If they do not do this, then the assorted governments CAN take action. People are not complying with these rules because they want to, it's because they have too.

            I don't know what the consequences are. I imagine the real threat is minimal and ramification remote. But, people are complying with the regulations, they're spending money to do it, they're annoying everyone because of it, but they do it anyway.

            I assume their lawyers are more adept at the nuances of this than I am so I cede to their judgement that "playing along" is the right thing to do, and not playing along is an unwarranted hazard not worth searching for.

            I'm on another site, with little tech support, running an ancient copy of VB, that does not use HTTPS. Specifially they don't use it for the login and registration system, I really could careless about the rest. But even though they are a niche, low traffic site (less than this), that doesn't mean that in todays day and age, not having HTTPS for the passwords is simply irresponsible. But the burden on them is too high to do it. I don't expect some EU agency is going to darken the skies with lawyers to attack this site, but...it's possible.

            Thankfully, there's no ADA mafia running around suing sites to implement this stuff...at least I don't think so.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Agent Orange View Post
              I don't know GiG, I don't have a problem with it; i.e. Vogons, Overclock.net, Overclocker.com, and many more.
              IMHO, what I don't like about those sites is that the text is full-bleed. It is a chore to read the entire length of a 16:9 screen like that. There is a very good reason that sites like twitter and reddit have crunched the desktop version into the center of the screen. It's far more visually ergonomic.

              I think these "full bleed" designs were a fad that is already outdated and was never really a good idea to begin with.

              Comment


                Originally posted by compaqportableplus View Post
                VileR, the images you posted don’t work for me; when I click on them it just brings up a tiny, low-quality thumbnail.

                I will say I appreciate your efforts to help improve the look and feel though!
                Oh, I tried to make the thumbnails link to external hosted images (to keep the original size), guess that didn't work right.

                Let me try again.... these should be 1920x1200 (that's what my changes look like at my desktop resolution).
                That's bigger than what the forum allows, so click "full size" for external hosted versions:



                I've also verified that it still plays nice with mobile:

                wipmobile-forumlist.png
                Forum list (mobile)
                wipmobile-latestactivity.png
                latest activity (mobile)
                wipmobile-forumview.png
                Thread list (mobile)
                wipmobile-threadview.png
                Thread view (mobile)
                wipmobile-viewblog.png
                Blog view (mobile)

                Again, this is really just a quick modification that could theoretically be injected into the current style (vBulletin says).
                Done because Erik indicated that they could use the help - so if the admins would like to try it out, the updated css is here: style-overrides.css.txt
                Attached Files
                int10h.org :: :: :: blog

                Comment


                  Also, I was finally able to upload it to userstyles.org, so anyone using a browser with the Stylish extension (Firefox, Pale Moon, or Chrome) can try it out: https://userstyles.org/styles/201604/vcfed-vb5-wip

                  There's more that I could try, for instance:
                  • Bring back the user's Location field next to each post
                  • Restore the number of threads per forum page from 10 to 20
                  • Restore the little pagination links that showed up for long threads in the forum view, so you could access a specific page directly
                  ...but those things can't be done with CSS, so the templates would have to be modified. As Erik suggested, I could try vBulletin 5 on my own hosting package and have a go at it.
                  OTOH, that stuff could conflict with other changes that the admins may already be working on. So any input from them would be appreciated.
                  int10h.org :: :: :: blog

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by vol.2 View Post
                    IMHO, what I don't like about those sites is that the text is full-bleed. It is a chore to read the entire length of a 16:9 screen like that. There is a very good reason that sites like twitter and reddit have crunched the desktop version into the center of the screen. It's far more visually ergonomic.

                    I think these "full bleed" designs were a fad that is already outdated and was never really a good idea to begin with.
                    Twitter is using 75% of my desktop monitor's width, so each side margin only takes up 1/8th of the screen. That's not bad at all in terms of "crunching", especially when you bear in mind that the entire idea behind Twitter is very short pieces of text.
                    Reddit's desktop design is just utter trash, and should never serve as an example of anything, but even they seem to have increased their max-width recently - at least it looks slightly less cramped now.

                    I agree, reading is far more ergonomic when lines don't get too long; but that's why newspapers (for instance) have always laid out their content in columns, and column-based grid layouts are finding similar usage on the web. Beats wasting screen real-estate on useless whitespace any day.

                    That still applies to the visual paradigm of message boards. You'll notice that most of the views provided by forum software are tabulated, including the one you're looking at right now. It's always possible to use the space more efficiently, and/or to increase the font size where needed (which can already be customized in our case), rather than just squash things horizontally and call it a day.

                    In any case, I wouldn't say full-width designs were ever a "fad". They were just how the web worked from the get-go, when resolutions and physical display sizes were less varied than they are today. Some designers have managed to adapt to the changes intelligently, others... less so.

                    int10h.org :: :: :: blog

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by VileR View Post

                      In any case, I wouldn't say full-width designs were ever a "fad". They were just how the web worked from the get-go, when resolutions and physical display sizes were less varied than they are today. Some designers have managed to adapt to the changes intelligently, others... less so.
                      Yeah, ok, I get your point. Websites started off "full bleed" and then the screen geometry changed. But the fact remains that the old geometry simply didn't need to squished because it was a sane width to begin with. Also screens were generally a lot smaller and you wouldn't want to go wasting real estate like that.

                      And yes, there are times that I want to make the text bigger, like if I'm in my recliner and I want to read the screen from 4-5' away, but that's what Ctrl-mousewheel zoom is for. If I'm at my desk, I don't ever want the text I need to read to be more than 15" across.

                      Comment


                        I'm not a very active user, more of a lurker here. Coming back here after a while has been a surprise.

                        The only thing I intend to comment on, is the new requirement for javascript; I find it seriously flawed (both the requirement, and the scripting itself). I read the entire thread and at times, simply *navigating* from page to page wasn't even working properly, at best taking up to 15s just to (appear to) do anything, sometimes being nice enough to display a "working" banner. A couple time complaining about not being able to connect to the server.

                        This on a machine that I consider beefy, with a recent enough browser and an FTTH connection.

                        I don't care, or do not wish to comment, on the looks of the new forum. I have nothing to say about navigating threads etc, I simply haven't done it enough yet.

                        But the scripting requirement and at best low reactivity of the scripts themselves render the forum almost unusable to me.

                        I'll come back and check regularly. I do hope that those issues can be fixed.

                        Comment


                          Why cant we have the location information for each user present with their name and avatar again? This will be an ongoing issue when they post Wanted threads. Plus its just good info to know where we all come from.

                          Comment


                            VileR, looks pretty good! I like it!
                            Compaq - It simply works better

                            Comment


                              There's something wrong with the PM feature. I received an email notice of a new PM along with the text, but the "Messages" here shows only a blank message.

                              Comment


                                Wanted to share a bit of fun with little practical purpose. In the case that one would want to browse using plain HTTP, I wanted to see how hard it would be to use an intermediate machine on my local network to serve everything internally via HTTP while relaying requests over HTTPS to the forum. What I came up with was a tiny php proxy that does this. It doesn't do anything about the javascript, and at this point you can't log in, but it does serve the basic site over plain HTTP within my local network. I would not recommend trying this anywhere that was not behind a firewall, but here's the details in case you want to try it.
                                There are two php files, proxy.php:
                                Code:
                                <?php
                                header_remove("X-Powered-By");
                                $remote = 'https:/'.$_SERVER['REQUEST_URI'];
                                $resp = file_get_contents($remote);
                                $my_ip = "127.0.0.1:8080";
                                
                                $replace = true;
                                $content_type = "";
                                foreach ($http_response_header as $h) {
                                if (strpos($h, "Content-Type"))
                                {
                                $content_type = $h;
                                if (strpos($h, "text/html"))
                                {
                                $replace = true;
                                break;
                                }
                                
                                if (strpos($h, "application/javascript"))
                                {
                                $replace = true;
                                break;
                                }
                                }
                                }
                                
                                header('Content-Type: '.$content_type);
                                
                                if ($replace)
                                {
                                $resp = preg_replace("/https:\/\/(.*?)\//", "http://".$my_ip."/$1/", $resp);
                                }
                                
                                echo $resp;
                                ?>
                                and redirect.php:

                                Code:
                                <?php
                                // rewrite to our index file
                                include __DIR__ . DIRECTORY_SEPARATOR . 'proxy.php';
                                ?>
                                put these in some directory on a machine in your network, and run
                                Code:
                                php -S 127.0.0.1:8080 redirect.php
                                You may need to replace 127.0.0.1 with the local IP of that machine. Same with the $my_ip variable in proxy.php.
                                Then from the HTTP only machine, go to
                                http://<local ip>:8080/vcfed.org

                                and hopefully, it will load. It's not fast, I'm sure a real multithreaded server would do much better. And you can't currently log in or probably post anything. But this was a bit of fun and maybe will let you load the site on your own network over HTTP.
                                I did notice that the nav buttons that depend on javascript are pretty easy to find in the source, it's probably possible with a little regex'ing to add in real href links to go to actual pages in a thread. Will try that sometime later.
                                Again, I probably would not host this anywhere other than a local network behind appropriate port blocking. Enjoy

                                Comment

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