$200 Wasted on Chinese Counterfeit ICs

[glitch]

As most of you probably know, I've got a lot of different rework boards for a bunch of potted modules that include a non-replaceable battery. I'd like to offer more of these as refurbished and ready to go, since I get a lot of people asking for them like that. Well, one of the more recent boards I've laid out is a rework board for MK48Z02 Zeropower NVRAMs -- this is a ST/Mostek product that's just a 2K battery-backed NVRAM. Pin compatible with JEDEC 2K SRAMs like the 6116. The originals are CAPHAT style packaging which are much easier to rebuild than the fully potted versions. So, I found a largeish lot of them on eBay, from a Chinese seller of course, with listing pictures that showed the CAPHAT version. I figured they'd be relabels and that the batteries would be nearly dead to totally dead, but that's OK since the plan was to rebuild them. This is what I got:



Hooray! $200 of modules eventually delivered like a month later!



Aw, not the CAPHAT packaging. That's OK, they'd still be rebuildable, just more difficult. Very poor relabels. Looks like someone took the old markings off with a belt sander. Wait...that doesn't look right...



Why are there pins missing?! Time to cut one open...



And there you go. They're not even MK48Z02s. They're not MK48T02s. They're Dallas DS12887 PC-style RTC/CMOS modules. Totally different device, not compatible at all, and not worth rebuilding since I can still get new DS12885 ICs from Mouser. Whats more is, they're so beat up I wouldn't rebuild them even if I needed them. Some of the pins bent and fell off this particular module just from handling.

The wonderful thing is, I opened an issue with the seller because they wanted me to return, to China, at my expense, before they'd issue a refund. eBay never alerted me that the case was opened and that they'd decided the seller should accept a return, and apparently I only had a few days to respond. So now I'm stuck with around $200 of useless crap counterfeit modules, which were probably illegal to send back through USPS anyway. Oh well, I guess at least they won't end up being resold.

 

[alank2]

I would say you tell eBay that you are going to tell everyone that they did not side with you when you received counterfeit goods. Tell them that you will shout it from the rooftops until they make the seller refund you. Keep mentioning over and over again eBay and counterfeit until they decide it might be good to do the right thing.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Counterfeit Chinese ICs? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!

If the item wasn't as advertised, it goes back on the seller's nickel, according to eBay rules.

I've been burned a couple of times when a Chinese seller takes my money and then is banned by eBay. Think you'll get your money back? Think again.

 

[KC9UDX]

This isn't even considered immoral in some cultures.

 

[vwestlife]

Call eBay Customer Support on the phone and plead your case. They can pull strings for you that normally aren't possible through the web site.

 

[glitch]

Call eBay Customer Support on the phone and plead your case. They can pull strings for you that normally aren't possible through the web site.

Last time I talked to eBay phone support, I wasted two hours of my life to basically get told, "too bad, we don't want your business." This was on their decision to ban links to your own projects' manuals. I'll take the $200 loss and avoid sitting on the phone with them

 

[glitch]

Counterfeit Chinese ICs? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked!

Right?! I expected relabels and dead batteries, I didn't expect them to be completely the wrong part. Guess that shows me...

If the item wasn't as advertised, it goes back on the seller's nickel, according to eBay rules.

That was my impression, but for whatever reason they didn't do the usual, "we send you a prepaid packing slip and notification email about what's happening." Instead, I got no email, just I guess a change in the "eBay Resolution Center" or whatever they call it now. On every other bogus transaction, I've gotten emails letting me know when there was a change in state and/or I needed to do something.

 

[Chuck(G)]

I would say you tell eBay that you are going to tell everyone that they did not side with you when you received counterfeit goods. Tell them that you will shout it from the rooftops until they make the seller refund you. Keep mentioning over and over again eBay and counterfeit until they decide it might be good to do the right thing.

You could try, but I suspect that Chinese recycled ICs make up such a small part of eBay's business that they won't bother doing anything, other than, say, banning the seller, who will promptly re-register under another name.

 

[tipc]

It remains to be seen how selling bogus vintage chips is seen as a lucrative scam. We are the ones to blame. We should all do the.right thing and pile all our vintage computers and gear really.high and set it ablaze. Before Chinese cartels start to.pop up.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

One of my suppliers had all of their accounts banned from ebay for reasons I'll probably never know and I was really bummed about it. They were the only seller I could find that sold bulk capacitors at a reasonable cost that weren't fake or garbage dumpster dived from an alley behind some Shenzhen factory.

But surprisingly all of their accounts were unbanned and reinstated about 3-4 months later and they started to have US stock, making it more convenient for me. I was a bit skeptical when they were "allowed" back, but I ordered a bunch of stuff and it arrived in less than a week, compared to about a month before.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Have the counterfeiters finally stopped selling fake or faulty Commodore SID chips?

 

[Hugo Holden]

There are a number of outcomes from the "Parts Recycling & cloning" industry when it comes to semiconductors:

1) Cloned new manufactured parts. Might or might not reach spec of original part.

2) Pulled parts, original or compatible parts . Passed off as new. The extent some go to here is astonishing, including welding longer leads onto a device, re-electroplating them, and the device body, and re-labeling. These parts often look brand new, suspiciously so. Its very easy to clean off original markings and re-label a part.

One could argue the above two examples are a form of good intentions gone awry, recycling "saving the planet", but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and many of these sorts of parts are not up to spec, the transistors have smaller physical dies. In demanding applications failure is not uncommon.

3) NOS parts that are identical looking on the exterior, but are not the same part and not compatible with the original part and re-labelled deliberately to resemble the original part and this is deliberate fraud, criminal activity, but worse than that; downright immoral and definitely not playing Cricket in the field of electronics engineering. And the seller most likely knows full well who did it .The OP has been a victim of this and if ebay cannot see this, they need to revise their policies.

Of course, in a supply chain, the seller may have been a victim of the deception themselves. Then it really muddies the water as to who is responsible for the fraud.

To avoid fake devices I try to buy vintage stock from known major manufacturers that looks NOS and a little aged with older date codes. Some devices are very hard to fake due to subtleties, for example Hitachi brand TTL IC's and Motorola brand tend to have a unique epoxy package with rounded corners/edges, easy to spot. Also the Fakers generally never use Gold, so vintage parts with gold plated pins are generally ok, and also mil spec parts are less likely(but sometimes) faked. Early Signetics TTL's have a unique light grey package. After a while you can recognize fakes, I have not been caught out for a while now. A lot of fake re-labeled IC's have a satin looking and not shiny surface and the ink looks too fresh and and the date codes often make no sense. Plus the ink cleans off really easily with most mild solvents.

If you are suspicious and you want to place a big order, buy a few parts first for analysis, before buying a big lot.

 

[glitch]

To be clear, I almost never buy mystery meat silicon from China and expect 100% accurate results. I just didn't expect it to be this terrible, usually the parts are at least somewhat pinout-compatible!

I usually do the "buy two or three, then the whole lot" but it's quite common for sellers to send good ones for the test lot. At a previous job we had to burst test aerosol can bodies for a local company. They'd ordered a sample run of 1000 from China which performed extremely well, surpassing every spec they'd supplied. Then they ordered a run of 50,000 can bodies. Many of them burst during the fill stage, and on analysis we were surprised they even came from the same company. Maybe they didn't, who knows.

Anyway, this is why all of my "goes in kits" parts come from Mouser, Digi-Key, and a few local suppliers I know, trust, and have used for years.

 

[Slob]

This isn't even considered immoral in some cultures.

I know what you mean. In the 80's, we were visited by a Taiwanese distributor of ours. They gave us our business cards with their photos on them (photographic paper), which was very unusual at the time. We asked, and they told us that it was very common for people to misrepresent themselves as someone else when selling products. So, let's say I was selling screws as a rep of company X, but when the deal was done, you would discover that they were from company Y. We asked if that would make customers angry. Not at all, they said, as long as the price was right, the product was good and deliveries were prompt. They simply did not understand why we would find this in any way objectionable. "It's business".

 

[VERAULT]

Last time I talked to eBay phone support, I wasted two hours of my life to basically get told, "too bad, we don't want your business." This was on their decision to ban links to your own projects' manuals. I'll take the $200 loss and avoid sitting on the phone with them

I know your pain, I had to argue for a promo I was supposed to be getting worth $250.00. You know the emails your get from eBay that say "no listing fees if you sell in this category" Well I didn't get mine so I had to call twice (3.5 hours worth on two calls) to get it. They were call centers in India and they were patronizing as hell. eBay Doesn't care about your or anyone's business as long as revenue keeps coming in. I agree you should do something Glitch; but if I were you I wouldn't want to waste time on a phone call either.

 

[Chuck(G)]

If it's a tossup for something between eBay and Amazon (and it often is the case), I'll go for Amazon.

Similarly, I'll take Aliexpress over eBay. Mostly, eBay has turned into a den of thieves.

 

[Hugo Holden]

One really good place to buy beautiful quality vintage parts from is Japan. Japanese versions of devices and their own versions always seem to be very well made and the Japanese conduct themselves in a very honorable manner in business I have found (in this respect they appear to put most other cultures to shame). It is really easy shopping if you are actually there, such as some of the stores in Akihabara Tokyo, but some suppliers are also online:

http://www.kashinoki.co.jp/page010_0.shtml

Also, even for something simple, like a switch, if its Japanese made and says 10A rated, you can guarantee it is ok with 10A. Some switches coming out of the far east rated at 10A can barely handle 3A. In fact most Japanese made electronic parts for consumer use are as good as mil spec ones from other countries. There seems to be a fad now to over-rate many components from China.

I think this is largely because Japanese people take great pride in their work, no matter what they do and they pay a lot of attention to detail and I really admire those qualities.

 

[normanator]

Sorry for your trouble. And I agree with earlier comment that this is just business in some cultures.

I just received an advertised "brand new" NVRAM chip for my Sun Ultra Sparc last week from Chinese eBay seller. It looks *very* much like the chips in your picture. Not even close to brand new looking, and lot# marking missing. I messaged the seller that it doesn't look brand new, and I suspected a fake. They responded "go ahead and try it and see if it works". I replied: If it's brand new as advertised, then "try it" isn't the right answer. And, I'm not going to risk a suspect chip on an otherwise good motherboard."

Fortunately, they refunded me the $11. Hardly an amount worth worrying about like your $200 investment. That said, many kudos for trying to create some retrofits for the rest of us. Hope this doesn't put you completely off of that mission.

 

[MikeS]

"ZERPOWER" ? Now there's a big clue... ;-)

 

[glitch]

Fortunately, they refunded me the $11. Hardly an amount worth worrying about like your $200 investment. That said, many kudos for trying to create some retrofits for the rest of us. Hope this doesn't put you completely off of that mission.

Glad you got your money back! I think they're more willing to refund when it's a small item. And no, it hasn't put me off retrofits, just sort of put me off the idea of being able to buy mystery meat NVRAMs, maybe have half of them be usable, and being able to keep a ready-to-go stock of them for other hobbyists. So I'll stick to the "you have to send me your dead NVRAMs" approach for now!

"ZERPOWER" ? Now there's a big clue... ;-)

Heh, maybe