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MOS 6509 sources?

P

Pet Rescue

Experienced Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
484
Location
Staffordshire, England
Hi again all it's been a while since my last project, now I have got myself a Commodore 710 that
is as dead as a dodo.

It has started to make me paranoid about using my B256, so I am wondering where you can get
a MOS 6509 and was wondering how prone they are to failure.

I am not sure if it has gone in the 710 but I will check it in my B256 first.
 
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Commodore only made about 35,000 CBM-II machines in total and the 6509 was only used in the CBM-II line. It's not likely they made many spare 6509 cpu chips. So, the best source of 6509's is from another dead CBM-II machine. I don't think we have enough data to determine how prone to failure they are. The best hope we have in my opinion is the "visual6502" organization, who are collecting old chips, decapping them, photographing them and then simulating them. At that point they can be re-created using modern FPGA chips. Hopefully at some point someone will donate a 6509 and other rare MOS chips (like the 6525, 6530, 6532).

There was also a discussion on 6502.org forum about recreating a 6509 using a 6502 and some additional chips, but it was only a theory.

I've never seen a 6509 chip for sale by itself on ebay.

Steve
 
Thanks for the reply Steve, looks like my fingers and toes are crossed then that it's ok.
Let's hope they aren't like TED and PLA chips, oh well I'll just have to deal with the paranoia for now.

I'll add one to my list with the P500, SCPU, hen's teeth and that rockin horse stuff for the garden.

Did you make any progress on the TIB drive project?
 
Yes, lets hope it's ok. TED chips do tend to die easily, but the PLA has been cloned.

I got as far as buying all the parts to clone the TIB drive but that's it. I actually bought both the PLCC and the DIP versions of the floppy controller chip.
It's another project I'd like to get back to.

Steve
 
Steve can the PLA be made from a fast EPROM like they do with the C64 and 8296D?

I bet you are busy with the colour pet projects, many projects and not enough spare time to work on all of them.

I never seem to get round to tinkering on the B Series machines but I will have to test that 6509 though then check
the ROM's etc.
 
Pet Rescue said:
Steve can the PLA be made from a fast EPROM like they do with the C64 and 8296D?

I bet you are busy with the colour pet projects, many projects and not enough spare time to work on all of them.

I never seem to get round to tinkering on the B Series machines but I will have to test that 6509 though then check
the ROM's etc.
Click to expand...

I don't know of anyone replacing a CBM-II PLA with an eprom, but I believe it should be possible just like in the 8296. The "SuperPLA" (http://www.protovision-online.com/hardw/superpla.php?language=en) is listed as compatible, however I have not tested it.

ColourPET firmware is coming along, although I haven't worked on it for a while. I need to fix a few bugs, like proper colour during cursor movement. The last work I did on the edit rom was to allow an 80-column PET to switch between 40 and 80 column mode using ESC-X. I need to get back to that, and also to finish the hardware and work on ColourPET+G.... so many things, so little time.

Steve
 
No need to worry about the PLA I've just put the 6509 in the B256 and the screen went mental.

So I quickly put my old one back and luckily there was a prompt. My worst fears are realised that it was dead.
It say MOS 6509AR7 DATED 83 what does AR7 stand for as the B256 just says MOS 6509 DATED 82.
So am I in for a long wait for a new equivalent then as a 6502 and 6510 aren't compatible.

I didn't dare to try the working one in the 710.
 
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I can't help with a 6509 but for a source of 6532s... I'm 99.999% certain that 1526 and MPS-802 printers had one, possibly two of them on their mainboard.
 
Pet Rescue said:
Cheers Dave I have a couple of 8250lp's that have the 6532 in I think so it's good to know, do they fail regularly?
Click to expand...

The 8250LP uses the 6530. The 6530 (RRIOT - RAM/ROM/IO/TIMER) chips are very prone to failure. They contain ROM, so you generally can't interchange them. However, in the 8250LP's case it uses a small daughter board and EPROM that overrides the contents of the RRIOT, so in that case you can use any RRIOT chip.

There has been some success as well adapting a 6532 (RIOT)+EPROM to function as a 6530 (RRIOT): http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/6530repl.htm

Steve
 
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sjgray said:
The 8250LP uses the 6530. The 6530 (RRIOT - RAM/ROM/IO/TIMER) chips are very prone to failure. They contain ROM, so you generally can't interchange them. However, in the 8250LP's case it uses a small daughter board and EPROM that overrides the contents of the RRIOT, so in that case you can use any RRIOT chip.

There has been some success as well adapting a 6532 (RIOT)+EPROM to function as a 6530 (RRIOT): http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/6530repl.htm

Steve
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Steve I still have a lot to learn on these machines, just out of interest do the B256 and 710 run at the same clock speed, the CPU in the B256 is a just a 6509 but the 710 it is a 6509AR7 usually A means 2mhz and could R7 be a revision number if so would a 2mhz 6509 run in a 1mhz machine?

Or am I clutching at straws hoping a mismatch in speed made the screen go mental!
 
Pet Rescue said:
Thanks for that Steve I still have a lot to learn on these machines, just out of interest do the B256 and 710 run at the same clock speed, the CPU in the B256 is a just a 6509 but the 710 it is a 6509AR7 usually A means 2mhz and could R7 be a revision number if so would a 2mhz 6509 run in a 1mhz machine?

Or am I clutching at straws hoping a mismatch in speed made the screen go mental!
Click to expand...

All b machines run at 2mhz. Only the p500 runs at 1mhz. I believe all 6509s were rated for 2mhz.

Steve
 
Damn I thought I was clutching at straws!

Out of interest Steve, it came with a "calc result bx700" cartridge. It says for the commodore 700 but would it work on the B256 or is it 700 only?

If you can use it, is the software on the cartridge or is it used as a dongle like on other copy protection software therefor would you need a disk?

Oh and realistically what are my chances of obtaining a 6509?

Were they manufactured for the wider world or just the CBM II range and when CBUG bought the stocks of computers were any spares sold as well?

Sorry for all the questions
 
Pet Rescue said:
Damn I thought I was clutching at straws!

Out of interest Steve, it came with a "calc result bx700" cartridge. It says for the commodore 700 but would it work on the B256 or is it 700 only?

If you can use it, is the software on the cartridge or is it used as a dongle like on other copy protection software therefor would you need a disk?

Oh and realistically what are my chances of obtaining a 6509?

Were they manufactured for the wider world or just the CBM II range and when CBUG bought the stocks of computers were any spares sold as well?

Sorry for all the questions
Click to expand...

The BX700 was never released. It was to have the 8088 coprocessor card in it. Model numbering is crazy (see my site for details: http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/index.html).

Yes, the cartridge also requires the disk. http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/pic-calcresult.jpg

According to the manual it requires a "700 series computer" and an 8250 disk drive. I'm surprised that it says 8250 as most B-series software only required an 8050. I admit I've never tried to use Calc Result so I can't verify that it's 100% correct. Unfortunately commodore were changing things very late in the game, so most commercial software ended up only running on the 128K machines. So when it says "700 series" I don't know if that means 710 (with 128K) or 720 (with 256K). The 128K and 256K machines have different ROMs. There is one screenshot in the manual and it shows the 128K roms.

The 6509 was only used in the CBM-II line and nothing else. AFAIK CBUG never bought any... it was Protecto. In any case in the CBUG newsletters there is no mention of any supply of spare parts anywhere.

Steve
 
Some of the Calc Result cartridges might origin from me. I don't know why Handic/Datatronic labeled it BX700 as that model never emerged, but in any case I cracked one cartridge open and found a PET (?) character ROM soldered to the board. As the CBM II series are not able to use custom fonts, and the PET would anyhow use 8x8 while the CBM-II line have different character dimensions, I'm entirely convinced this is a copy protection dongle and for some reason they had a huge surplus of PET character ROMs which were cheaper to use than program a custom EPROM, although the latter could've contained some executable code instead of only work as a dongle.
 
carlsson said:
Some of the Calc Result cartridges might origin from me. I don't know why Handic/Datatronic labeled it BX700 as that model never emerged, but in any case I cracked one cartridge open and found a PET (?) character ROM soldered to the board. As the CBM II series are not able to use custom fonts, and the PET would anyhow use 8x8 while the CBM-II line have different character dimensions, I'm entirely convinced this is a copy protection dongle and for some reason they had a huge surplus of PET character ROMs which were cheaper to use than program a custom EPROM, although the latter could've contained some executable code instead of only work as a dongle.
Click to expand...

Hi Anders, did you supply software back in the day? I had a couple of programs that came with the 710, they are Calc Result and one called Superbase.
Do you have any CBM II's yourself, if so which models and I've got to ask have you repaired the 8296D yet?

sjgray said:
The 6509 was only used in the CBM-II line and nothing else. AFAIK CBUG never bought any... it was Protecto. In any case in the CBUG newsletters there is no mention of any supply of spare parts anywhere.
Click to expand...

My mistake Steve I read a group took over the stock and mistakenly thought it was CBUG I forgot it was Protecto.
 
No, I just picked up stuff from elsewhere. Currently I've got a 610 w/ 256K that broke down some years ago, and a 710/128K lacking keyboard, in need of replacing PSU caps but otherwise surprisingly booted last time I tried. Also I haven't tackled the 8296D, probably in need of a PLA replacement as well as a keyboard and the fact it lacks floppy drives which makes it a 8296.
 
sjgray said:
The 8250LP uses the 6530. The 6530 (RRIOT - RAM/ROM/IO/TIMER) chips are very prone to failure. They contain ROM, so you generally can't interchange them. However, in the 8250LP's case it uses a small daughter board and EPROM that overrides the contents of the RRIOT, so in that case you can use any RRIOT chip.
Click to expand...

I’m theoretically still working on a VHDL implementation of a complete 6530, though I have not had any time to put into it for several months now. Lately I’ve been wondering if it wouldn’t be simpler to do a 6532 instead, and just let people use the ROM adapter board trick if they need a 6530.
 
gsteemso said:
I’m theoretically still working on a VHDL implementation of a complete 6530, though I have not had any time to put into it for several months now. Lately I’ve been wondering if it wouldn’t be simpler to do a 6532 instead, and just let people use the ROM adapter board trick if they need a 6530.
Click to expand...

Yes, we could use a real 6532 or hopefully your vhdl solution with Ruud's adapter (http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/6530repl.htm). Either would be a nice option to have.

Steve
 
sjgray said:
I don't know of anyone replacing a CBM-II PLA with an eprom, but I believe it should be possible just like in the 8296. The "SuperPLA" (http://www.protovision-online.com/hardw/superpla.php?language=en) is listed as compatible, however I have not tested it.Steve
Click to expand...

I tried it with an EPROM in a 610 and it didn't work. I assume it's down to running at 2mhz - the timing of an EPROM based solution is marginal already. I also tried the SuperPLA in a 720 and that works great.

Rob
 
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