Announcement

Collapse

Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

Debugging a KIM-1 computer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Oops, it is A8 and A9 that may not be decoded. I need
    to change my wiring.
    I'll confirm that.
    Good catch.
    Luckily I haven't finished that part of my hand wired adapter.
    I'll move the wires and have another diagram.
    Dwight
    Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 14, 2016, 08:17 AM.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
      Is there any interest?
      Dwight
      Dwight,

      I responded to you on the classiccmp list but just in case please put me down for one! Thanks!
      Current Wish List: 1. IBM 7531 Industrial Series PC 2. NEC MultiSync XL (JC-2001) Monitor 3. MicroSolutions UniDOS card 4. Compaq 14" VGA CRT Monitor (the one that came with the SystemPro). 5. Stacker HW CoProcessor Board MCA BUS. If you have any of the above for sale please PM me. Thank you!

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
        Oops, it is A8 and A9 that may not be decoded. I need
        to change my wiring.
        I'll confirm that.
        Hi Dwight,
        Yes, A8 and A9 too, but to me it looks like A6 and A7 also determines selection of both the correct 6530 and its I/O function. Very confusing. It seems the KIM-1 used 6530s with different 6530 mask address decoding.

        It saved them some glue logic on the KIM-1, but left it a little difficult to replace them with the generic 6532.
        -Dave

        Comment


          #19
          I'd be interested as well, thanks!

          - Gary

          Comment


            #20
            Your right Dave, I don't know how I got that part wrong. At least for my
            wired up adapter, I can ignore A8 and A9 but I'll need to keep them for the main
            unit.
            I'll have to reevaluate what I'll do for decoding there. It may be two chips or
            a 16L4 type device.
            I need to think about it. As it is now, it is clearly wrong.
            Dwight
            Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 14, 2016, 10:15 AM.

            Comment


              #21
              Hi Dave
              It is funny that I'd originally bought a 74138 with intentions
              of using that. When I started the drawing I couldn't recall why I'd
              bought it.
              I still need an inverter for the R/W on the EEPROM or I'll not be able
              to do in place programming. I'd really like to keep that.
              I just realized that K6/7 is OK for reading but needs CLK2 for writes.
              I have some cleanup to do.
              Dwight
              Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 14, 2016, 11:12 AM.

              Comment


                #22
                With the 74138 you can do some quite elaborate decoding, it has three direct 'address bits' and two active low and one active high level 'enable' line, all 8 outputs are active low (for /OE, /CS, /RD or /WR etc)..

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
                  I'll have to reevaluate what I'll do for decoding there. It may be two chips or
                  a 16L4 type device.
                  I really hope you can keep your elegant design concept of stacking everything using only the 6532 40 pin footprint.

                  The GAL16V8 can be obtained in small outline (SOIC) and PLCC packages if needed to make everything fit. I would have to build some surface mount-to-DIP adapter in order to program them. It is more than enough to do all the address decoder/glue logic in one part. Looking at ebay, the PLCC is the most common surface mount package and can be bought for less than a buck in very small quantities.

                  A real drawback is that the kit would have to come with a programmed GAL as it can't be expected that all the users would have the capability to program PAL/GALs.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    I'm going to go with one 7404 and one 7400. I should still be able to keep
                    it small.
                    It looks like a minimal gating takes 5 inverters and 3 nands. That includes
                    the gating needed for the EEPROMs WE*.
                    I'll update the drawings tomorrow.
                    The SOIC ttl parts are really small.
                    I looked at using the 74138 but it didn't solve the EEPROM write problem.
                    It needs either the WE* or the CE* qualified with CLK2. It doesn't make
                    sense to add it to CE* because one wants to not have it for the read.
                    It is needed for the write though.
                    I looked at the 6502 timing and there should be no issue programming the
                    EEPROM. I'll probably write code for the D7 compliment write testing.
                    I'm really pissed at myself for messing up the decoding.
                    That is why one does a prototype of every thing.
                    Dwight

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
                      I'm going to go with one 7404 and one 7400. I should still be able to keep
                      it small.
                      Dwight,
                      Good work. If you can keep the footprint without the need for a PAL/GAL, so much the better.

                      I looked on ebay for a KIM-1. Working units are very expensive, while a broken one may have a bad 6530. Your repair kit will be a viable option.
                      -Dave

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I redid the schematic but forgot to hit the send button. It'll have to wait for
                        tomorrow.
                        Dwight

                        Got it now.
                        Dave, you have a good eye, can you review it?
                        I have a few redundant wires shown that are in the first drawing.
                        If I get time, I'll delete them in the first drawing to remove confusion.
                        Thanks
                        Dwight
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Dwight Elvey; November 17, 2016, 12:35 PM.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
                          can you review it?
                          Dwight,
                          Looks good. I think you got it. I was a little confused until I realized CS1 on your schematic is the K5 decoder output on the KIM-1. You may want to denote that on the schematic.

                          To make the 6530 replacement kit a universal design, I think you need add jumper selects into the 6532 CS1, /CS2 and /RS inputs to open the circuits and allow jumpers to any address line that may be required. But more than that I notice that the 6530 in the 4040 disk drive uses pin 19 as a chip enable while the KIM-1 uses pin 18. So cut and jumpers may be needed for some applications anyway.
                          -Dave

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I thought about that but I wanted to keep it simple for the KIM-1 only.
                            Others have made adapters for Commodore stuff. They weren't as clean
                            as this one will be.
                            I've decided to use a PLCC 16L8 instead of the separate gates. It'll add a little
                            bit of height but a lot simpler wiring for the PC. You just bring the wire to
                            whatever input you'd like to use. The only restricted areas are the outputs.
                            One can skip every other pin ( cut them off once programmed ) to use for
                            more routing. Routing is going to be the bigger issue.
                            Also, I wanted to make it so one could change it form -002 to -003 for both
                            the I/O and the ROM. The way it is now it would take another chip to be able to do that.
                            One still has to program both ROM sections but that will be easy with the debug
                            board. The 16L8 is so much more flexible and actually uses less board space.
                            I just wish it were flatter. I can bring more wires to the 16L8 to make it more
                            universal. It could have all the signals use in the original 6530!
                            I've settled on using KiCad. Both cheap and many think it is quite good.
                            CS1 is the proper name of the 6530 pin, when used as a select.
                            Dwight

                            Comment


                              #29
                              The prototype adapter is working, at least for the first level. My display test works.
                              Now for my next trick to see if I can write to the EEPROM.
                              I may still have other issues but it is a lot easier to check things with a
                              working monitor. I will continue to write more EPROM drive test. It is just that
                              things are so much easier if I know all is working.
                              I'd bought some cheap 6532s from China. The first one was dead so I suspect
                              something else may be bad in the part that is working so far, maybe RAM or timer.
                              I was worried the there was something wrong with the adapter ( some 50 or so
                              crossed wires ).
                              Still, a working KIM monitor will make the job a little easier than not knowing if
                              there was a problem in my code or in the hardware.
                              Dwight

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Dwight Elvey View Post
                                I wonder if anyone has the firmware for the TIM?
                                Dwight
                                Here: http://retro.hansotten.nl/home/6502-sbc/tim-6530-004/

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X