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a forth portable

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    a forth portable

    i never knew there was a computer out there that used forth as much as it does:

    http://www.old-computers.com/museum/...asp?st=1&c=877

    has anyone used, has, no more about this computer?

    chris
    The vic rocks!

    #2
    Re: a forth portable

    Originally posted by vic user
    i never knew there was a computer out there that used forth as much as it does:

    http://www.old-computers.com/museum/...asp?st=1&c=877

    has anyone used, has, no more about this computer?

    chris
    Oh no, don't get CP/M User started! (We don't know if he's had his medication today ). He can rave for hours about the wonders of the Jupiter Ace, a UK-made computer with forth in ROM...

    --T
    Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
    _____________________________________________

    Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

    Comment


      #3
      sorry terry but,
      now i really want to know more!

      i no nothing of the jupiter ace.

      chris
      The vic rocks!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by vic user
        sorry terry but,
        now i really want to know more!

        i no nothing of the jupiter ace.

        chris
        I think I'll let CP/M U respond to this one. He is, after all, our resident expert on 'em. All I know is what I read on the web, and you can dig up all that info with any search engine. I do know that they fetch a pretty handsome price whenever they do come up on eBay.

        --T
        Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
        _____________________________________________

        Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

        Comment


          #5
          Jupiter Ace looks like a ZX80, but with rubber keys like the Spectrum. This is because they were designed by the same guy, and I also think the users' manuals were written (or edited) by one guy only, so they are quite alike in clearity. While ZX80/81 is black text on white background, I think the Jupiter operates in reverse video.

          Some years ago I read about a guy developing a Forth environment for Gameboy, and he had managed to load the ROM and boot halfways into an environment, but then it crashed. Not sure why he wants a Forth environment, but maybe he was planning to auto-load some software written in Forth utilizing Gameboy hardware. It probably is cool, but I would have preferred a Forth environment on a PC which could byte-compile your program into machine code to load into the Gameboy...

          Sun's SPARC machines have a boot PROM environment which resembles Forth (some guy even wrote a Breakout program to run in the boot PROM, but some primitive to draw graphics was missing), and I think that the portable SPARC-book might have included this boot environment too. In that case, it is yet another portable Forth-like computer!
          Anders Carlsson

          Comment


            #6
            I just don't trust the whole forth-in-ROM concept. I always thought the whole forth thing was that it's an extensible language, in which the user can write his own primitives to add commands to the basic kernel of the language. How does this work with ROM-based software? Does the Jupiter Ace store user-extensions on cassette tape, or what? (There goes forth's speed advantage, eh?)

            --T
            Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
            _____________________________________________

            Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

            Comment


              #7
              I was reading a bit about Forth, yesterday, and there was a mention that the creator was not pleased with a version of Forth that came out, as he said it went against the spirit of what he intended Forth to be.

              I wondert if this is related to your comment Terry?

              Chris
              The vic rocks!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: a forth portable

                "Terry Yager" wrote:

                >> i never knew there was a computer out there that used
                >> forth as much as it does:

                >> has anyone used, has, no more about this computer?

                > Oh no, don't get CP/M User started! (We don't know
                > if he's had his medication today ). He can rave for
                > hours about the wonders of the Jupiter Ace, a UK-made
                > computer with forth in ROM...

                Medication today? The Jupiter Ace is a one of a kind, very
                rare, but occasionally shows it's face. There's an emulator
                for this machine though (which isn't too bad) & some
                commercial software (mostly games written in FORTH).
                Unfortunately, I can't remember which FORTH it was, the
                machine came out around 1983 (which was one standard
                of FORTH), but the Ace used FORTH-79.

                Unfortunately the creator was hoping the Ace would have
                been big with it's built-in FORTH, but in a way it was up
                against CP/M which had FORTH a plenty for it, the Ace
                while it's Z80 based, didn't run CP/M, lack of Disk drive &
                RAM were the main concerns. Also with the success of
                BASIC in just about every other machine in it's time &
                the simplicity of it, the Ace failed due to the lack of interest
                of FORTH. That doesn't mean it was a terrible language, it
                can be quite a powerful language when subroutines are
                built into the system. The language itself looks daunting
                to learn, which is why BASIC won hands up.

                Hardware wise, the Ace can be closely compared with a ZX81,
                except the language seems to seperate them & are worlds
                apart. Unfortunately, I don't know how Assembly is access
                via a Ace, but it might be interesting to see if an assembly
                program written in a ZX81 would work on an Ace.

                Cheers,
                CP/M User.
                Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

                Comment


                  #9
                  "Terry Yager" wrote:

                  > I just don't trust the whole forth-in-ROM concept. I always
                  > thought the whole forth thing was that it's an extensible
                  > language, in which the user can write his own primitives to
                  > add commands to the basic kernel of the language. How
                  > does this work with ROM-based software? Does the Jupiter
                  > Ace store user-extensions on cassette tape, or what?
                  > (There goes forth's speed advantage, eh?)

                  Personally, I think it's rather Cool having FORTH-in-ROM, cause
                  it shows that it can be a system in itself. FORTH is more than
                  just a Language, it's a systems language, the idea being with
                  the compiler isn't to compile programs for use in CP/M or for an
                  assembler to compile, but code which is compiled within for
                  FORTH to run. Having subroutines is what makes it powerful &
                  since they sit on the stack, they ready for use (unlike BASIC
                  which has to interpret the code & then run it). The ACE uses RAM
                  to store the routines hence an area called the stack, personally
                  I don't have a real Ace to tell you how the programs were saved
                  to tape & the emulator has a different way of saving the
                  programs as such it saves the contents of the memory which
                  captures the routines used by the program.

                  Cheers,
                  CP/M User.
                  Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

                  Comment


                    #10
                    "vic user" wrote:

                    > I was reading a bit about Forth, yesterday, and
                    > there was a mention that the creator was not
                    > pleased with a version of Forth that came out, as
                    > he said it went against the spirit of what he
                    > intended Forth to be.

                    Charles Moore (the creator of FORTH) created this
                    language because he was unhappy with the way
                    the other languages (of the time) worked, I know
                    this for a fact.

                    I'm not sure which implentitation of FORTH he's
                    unhappy with, but I would say the Ace follows his
                    guidelines, later versions of FORTH would perhaps
                    go against the trend & offer routines for this
                    language, this would then me something that
                    Charles wouldn't of had in mind.

                    Cheers,
                    CP/M User.
                    Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Actually, isn't everyone who uses forth running a slightly different dialect than everyone else's version, the language being extensible and all? Could that have something to do with it's lack of popularity, the non-standardness of it? (I do know that forth's followers are very loyal to it, even to this day).

                      --T
                      Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
                      _____________________________________________

                      Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        "Terry Yager" wrote:

                        > Actually, isn't everyone who uses forth running
                        > a slightly different dialect than everyone else's
                        > version, the language being extensible and all?

                        There are many versions of this Language/System
                        going around or indeed written, as well as being
                        quite a few standards going around (like FORTRAN).

                        > Could that have something to do with it's lack of
                        > popularity, the non-standardness of it? (I do
                        > know that forth's followers are very loyal to it,
                        > even to this day).

                        Nowadays people have adapted a standard of FORTH
                        which is determined by one of the earlier standards,
                        FORTH-83 I believe is what they use. Which means
                        that previous versions of FORTH going around such
                        as the one for the ACE (FORTH-79) are classed as
                        outdated.

                        I can also say for a fact that back in 1984 it was
                        possible to incorporate Assembly into FORTH.
                        Assembly as we all should know, is a language of
                        the CPU, which makes it harder for a program to be
                        portable (not impossible - just harder)!

                        Cheers,
                        CP/M User.
                        Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Interesting. I kinda thought FIG-FORTH was the most popular standard (but IIRC, it's based on the -83 version). I used to fool around with it a little on my KayPro. Not actually writing my own code, just compiling and running other people's stuff. It is kinda wierd, especially if yr not acustomed to using RPN (not an H-P calculator fan).

                          --T
                          Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
                          _____________________________________________

                          Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: secondary storage device; while tape may be slower and less random accessible than a disk, is it such an odd media to store Forth (and other) programs on? I realize that you want an editor environment and keep screenfuls of definitions which will become tricky using tape and little RAM, but is that the only viable way to work with the language?

                            FWIW, both Commodore and third-party developers released Forth on cartridge (ROM plugin) both for VIC-20 and C64. The VIC cartridge included a 3K RAM expansion to give a little more workspace (a total of 6.5K). It was developed with disk access in mind (editor disk sold separately), but some tape routines were included as well.

                            Re: Z80 machine code program on the Jupiter Ace - I would assume that memory maps etc are different, but maybe software which doesn't make ROM calls would work. Sounds more like a generic Z80 program though.
                            Anders Carlsson

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The prime law of CP/M (or any portable OS) is: A system call is a system call, is a system call, or to paraphrase: Assembly language is assembly language, is assembly language. There's no reason pure generic Z80 code wouldn't work on the Jupiter Ace. That's probably the language the FORTH is written in anyways.

                              --T
                              Teach your children how to think, not what, and hold 'em close, not tight.
                              _____________________________________________

                              Please visit the Vintage-Computer Wiki. Contributers welcome.

                              Comment

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