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Macintosh SE/30 boot issues

AdamAnt316

AdamAnt316

Experienced Member
Joined
May 23, 2016
Messages
230
Location
Massachusetts
Hello everyone. I picked up a Macintosh SE/30 this past weekend at a swapmeet. I was told by the seller that it was coming up with the 'Sad Mac' icon. Since I've wanted a SE/30 for a long time, I plunked down the $5 asking price, and hauled it to my car.

This afternoon, I decided to plug the SE/30 in and see exactly what it does. The first time I flicked the power switch, it did nothing. I checked the power cord, flicked it again, and was greeted by a gray screen with a (moveable) mouse cursor once the CRT warmed up. The computer never got any farther than that, and I could hear the internal hard drive repeatedly spinning up, whirring for several seconds, and then spinning down. I tried pressing the Programmer button on the side, and was finally greeted by the Sad Mac icon, bearing the following code:

0000000F
00000013

I tried turning it off and then turning it back on again after a few seconds, and got a wacky checkerboard-esque pattern on the screen, which pressing the reset button did nothing for. Further attempts at turning it on have resulted in either the gray screen, the checkerboard pattern (seems to be more common if I wait less than 15-30 seconds between attempts, not entirely sure), or no powering up at all. The chime sounds are there (including the 'death chime' when I bring up the Sad Mac), but extremely faint compared to the other compact Macs I've used.

Any ideas what might be wrong with the unit? I'm guessing bad capacitors, but I'm not entirely sure. The fact that the unit seems to be working at the basic level (i.e. the mouse cursor moving around when I get the plain screen) makes me hopeful that it's not a lost cause, but I have no real idea. Thanks in advance!
-Adam
 
All bets are off on any troubleshooting until at the minimum the capacitors are replaced on the logic board. They WILL cause problems.
 
Thanks for the reply. That's what I figured, even though I haven't encountered capacitor issues with any of my other compact Macs thus far (even my Mac Plus still worked like a charm last time I booted it up). I'm mainly trying to figure out whether or not capacitors might be the only issue before I go gung-ho replacing what I'm guessing are several dozen tiny little capacitors, only to find that it's something else causing the problem. I've read an article about cleaning leaked gunk near said bad capacitors as being at least a short-term fix. Might this be something viable, or would it be fruitless to try? Again, thanks!
-Adam
 
NeXT has been crystal clear, you can't try to diagnose a faulty SE/30 board without doing first a complete recapping. There're only 11 caps to replace and I must say that they're big compared to others you can find in other machines. Cleaning the gunk could serve as a emergency measure only if it's shortcircuiting tracks; but also can work the inverse and make work a track when it's severely corroded. Clean it and it will not work anymore.
Your only secure bet is replace the caps and thoroughly clean the PCB looking for damaged tracks. Then you'll be able to diagnose the HDD...
I say, do it!
 
Thanks for the reply. Is there a list somewhere of the caps I'd need? Also, how many of them are surface mount? I have yet to do anything involving that sort of soldering, mostly working with through-hole parts up to this point. Finally, is there anything about the logic board I have to watch for, like multi-layer construction? Again, thanks!
-Adam
 
AdamAnt316 said:
Thanks for the reply. Is there a list somewhere of the caps I'd need? Also, how many of them are surface mount? I have yet to do anything involving that sort of soldering, mostly working with through-hole parts up to this point. Finally, is there anything about the logic board I have to watch for, like multi-layer construction? Again, thanks!
-Adam
Click to expand...

Check this page & links, it has a lot of info about details of the procedure: http://pc-restorer.com/repairing-a-macintosh-se30-with-no-sound/
 
jltursan said:
Check this page & links, it has a lot of info about details of the procedure: http://pc-restorer.com/repairing-a-macintosh-se30-with-no-sound/
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. Ugh, surface-mount components... :mad1: I've done pretty well avoiding surface-mount work up to now, but it looks like I may have no choice if I want to bring this SE/30 back to something resembling life. I'm hoping that the leads of the old caps can just be carefully snipped off with a pair of wire cutters instead of the 'twist and pull' method mentioned on that page, which sounds like a good way to rip up the solder pads if the leads aren't quite as weak as you think they might be. :???: Again, thanks!
-Adam
 
AdamAnt316 said:
Yeah, I've heard about that. Seems to me like a good way to tear the solder pads off of the board if things don't go quite right. Nevertheless, I'll keep it in mind.
-Adam
Click to expand...
Nah. It actually works. Just be careful and if it feels really tight when you are twisting or you keep twisting and it doesnt seem to be breaking off then get out some snips and cut the dang things off. I recently recapped an LCIII using the twist and snip method.

You can also take some side cutters and snip the can right above the black base. Then you can lift the base of and simply heat up the legs and lift them right off.

Check out this video for the twist technique:

https://youtu.be/X8N9O3a9jiM

Some people will say that you should use a hot air rework station but I have done more damage with that then the snip method. I have recapped a Mac portable, an LCIII and quite a few power boards and sound cards and have yet to wreck a solder pad except when I was using the hot air station.
 
Zippy Zapp said:
Nah. It actually works. Just be careful and if it feels really tight when you are twisting or you keep twisting and it doesnt seem to be breaking off then get out some snips and cut the dang things off. I recently recapped an LCIII using the twist and snip method.

...

Some people will say that you should use a hot air rework station but I have done more damage with that then the snip method. I have recapped a Mac portable, an LCIII and quite a few power boards and sound cards and have yet to wreck a solder pad except when I was using the hot air station.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree, I have a hot air solder station and is by far the trickiest method to desolder caps when they've severe leaks. You really need to raise a lot the temp to go through the goo, you'll probably end damaging the surroundings or the PCB itself. If you're not using kapton tape or some kind of insulation you're screwed.
If they're clean and you use flux of course it's a better method; but it's far from common to find them gunk-free.
The best method to use hot air is by means a hot base (don't know how in english it's named), put it under the PCB and it raises its base temp to near 100ºC, then apply hot air and you'll need less effort to reach the desired temp.
You can also use the two solder iron trick, apply each on both sides of the cap at the same time and carefully raise it when the tin melts. Nice if they're moderately dirty and of course, you have a pair of nice irons.

With the twist method you only need to get a small pliers and firmly twist the cap slightly pressuring against the PCB. I've removed a hundred caps this way and never broke any pad; but of course, there's always the risk to break something, there's no 100% guaranteed method.
 
Everyone is right though, don't even bother troubleshooting ANY of these era macs without first recapping the logic board, ALL of the late 80's early 90's macs with the surface mount aluminum electrolytic caps are suspect, SE/30, Classic's, LC's, IIci, Portable, and more...

I have had good luck rocking them gently side to side until the leads snap off of the cap, then I add some solder, remove the lead, and clean up the pad. I do want to pick up a cheap hot air station though, I am pretty sure it would make it a bit easier ;-)
 
Again, thanks. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have yet to have cap issues with any of my other Mac hardware ***KNOCK ON WOOD***. Granted, I haven't used my Mac Classic or Classic II in several years, but my Plus worked fine a year or so ago, as did my SE (though the hard drive's a bit sluggish at first, but that's long been ongoing). My LC III seems to be working fine, as does the Apple IIe Card I have installed in it. Was it a bad batch of parts used within a period of time, or it it typical of these goofy SMD electrolytics in general? I haven't had nearly the same issue with regular through-hole parts made in the same timeframe; I have numerous computers older than these, built mostly or entirely with through-hole parts, and they boot up like a charm every time.
-Adam
 
In my experience, it's primarily the '030 Macs that have this problem. There is much less of it with '040s and very little with '020s or Power Macs (the atrocious iMac G5 issues notwithstanding).
 
My LC III seems to be working fine, as does the Apple IIe Card I have installed in it
Click to expand...

I've LCII and LCIII boards and indeed, they're working great. If you inspect the caps you'll probably find that there're no traces of leakage. Seems that Apple used a really good source for these caps.

I've also found nasty leaking caps in the Mac Portable.
 
jltursan said:
I've LCII and LCIII boards and indeed, they're working great. If you inspect the caps you'll probably find that there're no traces of leakage. Seems that Apple used a really good source for these caps.

I've also found nasty leaking caps in the Mac Portable.
Click to expand...

I also have a LC II and LC III, both have leaking caps, cleaned up the goo with alcohol and they are still working for the moment, but I know I will need to recap them soon. I have also heard of LC //e cards needing recaps, but I have not owned one since the 90's so no first hand with that.
 
AdamAnt316 said:
Again, thanks. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have yet to have cap issues with any of my other Mac hardware ***KNOCK ON WOOD***. Granted, I haven't used my Mac Classic or Classic II in several years, but my Plus worked fine a year or so ago, as did my SE (though the hard drive's a bit sluggish at first, but that's long been ongoing). My LC III seems to be working fine, as does the Apple IIe Card I have installed in it. Was it a bad batch of parts used within a period of time, or it it typical of these goofy SMD electrolytics in general? I haven't had nearly the same issue with regular through-hole parts made in the same timeframe; I have numerous computers older than these, built mostly or entirely with through-hole parts, and they boot up like a charm every time.
-Adam
Click to expand...

The Plus and SE still use older through hole caps, which seem to hold up better, not to say they will never fail, but at this point it's still unlikely. The Classic and Classic II, those surprise me, those are as notorious for cap failure as the SE/30's are, you may want to open and inspect them to be sure, the cap "goo" can, if left long enough, damage traces, so it's something to stay on top of.
 
RWallmow said:
The Plus and SE still use older through hole caps, which seem to hold up better, not to say they will never fail, but at this point it's still unlikely. The Classic and Classic II, those surprise me, those are as notorious for cap failure as the SE/30's are, you may want to open and inspect them to be sure, the cap "goo" can, if left long enough, damage traces, so it's something to stay on top of.
Click to expand...

Again, thanks for the replies. I opened up my LC III, since it's a bit more easy to access the innards of than the usual compact Mac, and I couldn't find any obvious signs of cap leakage on either board, thankfully. Some of the solder points at said caps are a bit discolored, but not especially different than any of the other solder points, and nothing seems to be spreading out from any of them. About the only issue I've had with the unit was with one of the external SCSI HDs I have, and I have yet to test a different drive to see what's to blame.

As for the Classic and Classic II, as I said, I haven't powered them up in several years, but they worked fine back then. I generally tended towards the SE when it came to my compact Mac usage, for some reason (though the Classic's ability to boot into System 6 in ROM was a neat feature). I'll have to dig them up, and see what they do. I'll probably open them up to take a look at the boards first, since I'd rather avoid the wrath of the ol' CRT anode if I can help it..... :frankenstein:
-Adam
 
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