Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

XTIDE and Windows 95 issues

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    XTIDE and Windows 95 issues

    Hi,

    i use XTIDE with latest Build r588 (12kb atl version) and 3com 509b Ethernet card for the Bootprom. (486 System) XTIDE is running at address C800 and detects my harddisk successfully.

    Now i have a MS-DOS and a Windows 95b installation. DOS runs fine, Windows 95 had some issues:

    first, the harddisk is running in "dos compatibility mode" I think the protected mode driver is not loaded. Is it possible to fix this issue?

    second, it is not possible to install the networkcard drivers for the 3com 509b ISA Ethernet Card. During the installation process, the system crash
    with an bluescreen:

    Errorcode 6 with an address: C800:00002046

    looks like the XTIDE address space...

    With enabled 3com drivers, windows crashes during bootprocess.

    Any suggestions how to fix this issues? thx



    P.S. Whats happing with the "official" XTIDE Beta testing thread?

    #2
    I would guess that, because you're using the network card to host your boot ROM, the Windows driver thinks a network boot ROM is installed in the card and is trying to read it to help configure the card. Since it's an XT-IDE ROM instead, the data the driver is reading off it is invalid and it crashes.

    As for why the hard drive drivers don't work, I'm guessing you're using the XT-IDE ROM with a controller that's not an XT-IDE controller? I'm not really sure how or if that issue can be fixed, but I'm guessing you're using the XT-IDE ROM because your motherboard's BIOS doesn't support your drive size or something, in which case the Windows driver for your controller probably doesn't know how to handle your drive size either and falls back on using DOS calls to access it.

    If it is the case that you're using something that's not an XT-IDE controller with an XT-IDE ROM just in order to get around a BIOS drive size limit, it might be possible to get around these issues by removing the XT-IDE ROM and installing Dynamic Drive Overlay software like EZ-Drive or something similar. Note that that will probably involve re-partitioning and reformatting your hard drive, though.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by CrazyChris View Post
      first, the harddisk is running in "dos compatibility mode" I think the protected mode driver is not loaded. Is it possible to fix this issue?
      It might be but I don't know why this happens, I've personally never done any testing under Windows 9x.

      second, it is not possible to install the networkcard drivers for the 3com 509b ISA Ethernet Card. During the installation process, the system crash
      with an bluescreen:

      Errorcode 6 with an address: C800:00002046

      looks like the XTIDE address space...

      With enabled 3com drivers, windows crashes during bootprocess.
      The BSOD with error 6 means "Invalid Opcode Fault". My guess is that the NIC drivers, when detecting an enabled ROM, assumes that the ROM contains a 3Com specific binary and just blindly calls that address for some reason. Unless there's a way to prevent this behaviour somehow, the only solution is to find another driver that doesn't do this.

      P.S. Whats happing with the "official" XTIDE Beta testing thread?
      Nothing much. You probably should have posted this in that thread.
      Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

      Comment


        #4
        The NIC driver shouldn't be scanning the ROM at all, its only used for PXE booting normally. If you can, disable PnP mode on the NIC and manually set resources. Windows 9x is likely doing something silly in the UMB area and crashing as usual. If disabling PnP mode on the NIC doesn't work, try adding "LocalLoadHigh=0" to the [386enh] section of system.ini.

        As long as your IDE controller is at the normal hardware locations, the built in driver should work. There is a quirk where Windows reads the EBDA to check for the existence of a IDE hard drive. If you have an option ROM controlling your IDE drive and the drive is set to "disabled" in the BIOS, the protected mode driver will not load. Set your drive up in the BIOS with dummy CHS parameters (1024/16/63 usually works).

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for your help. Sounds good, i will try it.

          It´s an old 486 systemboard, made by siemens-nixdorf with opti 495 chipset and custom bios from late 93. 504MB barrier...


          Maybe i have to go the junkyard and get one of those crabcards...

          Comment


            #6
            I just remembered someone having a similar problem with Invalid Opcode Fault and IIRC that was solved by enabling shadowing of the ROM in the system BIOS setup. Might be worth trying if it's not already enabled.

            The dummy drive workaround is a bad idea that will likely lead to data corruption sooner or later.

            EDIT: Yep it was Malc who had this same problem: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthrea...385#post321385

            EDIT2: Actually, it wasn't Malc: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthrea...921#post332921
            Last edited by Krille; February 29, 2016, 06:11 AM.
            Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

            Comment


              #7
              The "dummy drive" configuration shouldn't cause any problems. The XT-IDE ROM should hook Int 13h in real mode bypassing the BIOS routines. In Windows, the protected mode driver will bypass Int 13h completely. Just about every disk overlay and IDE option ROM card recommended doing it back in the day, likely because of this "bug" in Windows.

              Comment


                #8
                Thx.

                I have only the option to enable BIOS and Video BIOS shadowing (which is already enabled). There is an option to enable "Shadow RAM Caching" (set to Video BIOS only) but i don´t think this solve anything.

                Meanwhile i think the problem is the 3com NIC. Malc has the same card...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by njroadfan View Post
                  The "dummy drive" configuration shouldn't cause any problems. The XT-IDE ROM should hook Int 13h in real mode bypassing the BIOS routines. In Windows, the protected mode driver will bypass Int 13h completely.
                  XTIDE Universal BIOS doesn't bypass anything. It will handle calls meant for the drive it's been configured to handle and pass calls meant for other drives to the previous Int13h handler in the chain. In this case, the system BIOS. So you will have two drives in DOS, both of which are accessible for writes, each with its own set of buffers and caches. Not to mention they will also very likely be using different drive geometries.

                  In Windows, you will have the "dummy drive" accessed only by the protected mode driver as you say, but, unless Windows can magically figure out that all drives are actually the same physical drive, you will also have the drive handled by XTIDE Universal BIOS in "DOS compatibility mode". Again, each drive with its own cache and possibly with differing drive geometries ("possibly" because Windows might be smart enough to ignore the drive geometry used by the system BIOS).

                  I don't see how this can be safe since there is no way (AFAIK) to prevent the OS from caching or writing to specific drives.

                  Just about every disk overlay and IDE option ROM card recommended doing it back in the day, likely because of this "bug" in Windows.
                  Do you have a link to one of these recommendations?
                  Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Pre-PCI systems are VERY touchy regarding option ROMs that hook Int 13h, only reason why I know this is that my 486 really hated having a SCSI card and a LBA BIOS card with both ROMs enabled. By default they usually register the first drive they find as unit 80h over-riding the BIOS and any other option ROMs that precede it during POST. EX: Install a ISA SCSI card with HD and enable its ROM alongside of the XT IDE ROM and watch what happens. Whatever card is scanned last by the BIOS usually lands up as the boot drive at 80h. There is usually no chaining of Int 13h on these systems.

                    Newer machines have a BIOS that conforms to the BIOS Boot Specification and likely have the double drive problem. One thing that may need to be addressed in the XT IDE AT versions is if it properly updates the BDA (see except below of page 20 of the above PDF). If not, Windows 9x might not think any IDE drives are present in the system (I don't think my LBA card properly updates the BDA, it assumes a drive is set in the BIOS).

                    5.2.5 Controller Installation Guidelines
                    · Each controller may install INT 13h support for one or more drives.
                    · When INT 13h is hooked, the old vector will be saved.
                    · A controller will only respond to requests which specify the drive number for
                    which it has control, and will pass on requests to other drive numbers to the old
                    vector.
                    · A controller may not know if it has any drives attached until it is called to install.
                    If no drives are attached, then the controller should not hook INT 13h.
                    · The number of hard drives currently installed is stored in the BDA at address
                    0040:0075. When a controller installs support for additional drives, this location
                    must be incremented by the number of drives that are to be added.
                    · A controller must install INT 13h support by using sequentially increasing drive
                    numbers starting after the drives previously installed. For example, if two drives
                    are already installed when the controller gets called, they will occupy drive
                    numbers 80h and 81h. The next available numbers for the controller to occupy
                    would be 82h, 83h, etc.
                    · A controller checks if the location at 0040:0075 is zero to determine if it is the first
                    to install. If it is first, the controller must copy the INT 13h vector over the INT
                    40h vector so that floppy services are handled properly.
                    · The first controller to install will get drive number 80h. The controller then knows
                    that it controls the hard drive boot device.
                    21
                    · Once a controller has hooked+ into INT 13h services, it can never unhook, since
                    controllers hooked in after it would be lost.
                    · Any controllers such as Legacy cards which hook INT 18h or INT 19h may end up
                    taking over the boot process and may possibly reduce the capability of the BIOS to
                    control the boot order.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by njroadfan View Post
                      The NIC driver shouldn't be scanning the ROM at all, its only used for PXE booting normally. If you can, disable PnP mode on the NIC and manually set resources. Windows 9x is likely doing something silly in the UMB area and crashing as usual. If disabling PnP mode on the NIC doesn't work, try adding "LocalLoadHigh=0" to the [386enh] section of system.ini.
                      Disable PnP mode fixed the 3com driver crash during installation. Now the network card with XT-IDE rom works under windows 95.

                      Originally posted by njroadfan View Post
                      As long as your IDE controller is at the normal hardware locations, the built in driver should work. There is a quirk where Windows reads the EBDA to check for the existence of a IDE hard drive. If you have an option ROM controlling your IDE drive and the drive is set to "disabled" in the BIOS, the protected mode driver will not load. Set your drive up in the BIOS with dummy CHS parameters (1024/16/63 usually works).
                      Did not work with my system. If i set some parameters in the BIOS, the bootmanager on my hdd won't load properly. XT-IDE detects the disk but XFDisk bootmanager failed with 'invalid operation system'

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by njroadfan View Post
                        One thing that may need to be addressed in the XT IDE AT versions is if it properly updates the BDA (see except below of page 20 of the above PDF). If not, Windows 9x might not think any IDE drives are present in the system (I don't think my LBA card properly updates the BDA, it assumes a drive is set in the BIOS).
                        XUB adds in the drive count in the BDA so this is not the problem.
                        Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Whay using the XT-IDE with a 486 system? You can simply use any normal 16 Bit ISA IDE controller there, Vesa-Local-Bus, MCA (if it's a PS/2), EISA and PCI IDE controllers are also supported by Windows. With such generic IDE card, with an adapter für less than 2 dollars you can even attach (small) compact flash cards to such controllers. I am running several computers of the AT class with Compact Flash cards that way.

                          XT-IDE was designed specially for XT class computers (8088/8086) and they are a kind of waste in an AT or better, they even slow down such a machine. I also don't think that there will be a dedicated driver for Win 9x and newer.
                          <album>

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 1ST1 View Post
                            Whay using the XT-IDE with a 486 system? You can simply use any normal 16 Bit ISA IDE controller there, Vesa-Local-Bus, MCA (if it's a PS/2), EISA and PCI IDE controllers are also supported by Windows. With such generic IDE card, with an adapter für less than 2 dollars you can even attach (small) compact flash cards to such controllers. I am running several computers of the AT class with Compact Flash cards that way.

                            XT-IDE was designed specially for XT class computers (8088/8086) and they are a kind of waste in an AT or better, they even slow down such a machine. I also don't think that there will be a dedicated driver for Win 9x and newer.
                            As far as I can tell, he is not using an XT-IDE card (or any other 8-bit harddisk controller) in his 486. He is using XTIDE Universal BIOS.
                            Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Yes, I am using the standard Onboard IDE ports provided by the 486 mainboard. Previous i tried to use Ontrack DDO to bypass 528MB limit but this did not work properly in a dualboot environment. (lot of issues with bootmanagers etc.) So i chose XTIDE Universal BIOS.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X