Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

XTEND Microproducts Renaissance 486 Help.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    XTEND Microproducts Renaissance 486 Help.

    So I am a bit of a Microchannel noob. But I got my first couple IBM PS/2 Microchannel machines yesterday in a huge lot of stuff.

    I got Model 9577, Model 8560, and 2 P70s. But it was the boxes of parts that were really curious. Looks like alot of parts for machines I didn't get sadly.

    But anyways, the topic at hand is something called the XTEND Microproducts Renaissance 486. Which is a curious upgrade card.

    What I'm wondering, is does anyone have any documentation, software, or any information regarding this thing. So far the only information I can find is from Google book copies of InfoWorld magazine.

    I'd like to be able to use it. Someone wrote M50/60 on it. So I'm assuming that means it can work in a Model 60? Be nice since the model 60s CPU and RAM are missing.

    Here are some pictures of the card, and in the box it came with a bunch of XTEND adapters that don't seem to fit with this card.








    Last edited by pinkdonut666; March 31, 2020, 09:57 AM.

    #2
    If it's anything like the 8088 to 286 upgrade I have you'll still need to have the original cpu in the machine to use it. I can't say I've seen or heard of one of those before though. That's an awesome upgrade though, it would turn the model 60 into a screamer! Wouldn't mind having that with my 60 lol

    Comment


      #3
      The thing dangling off the card with the CPU on it looks like a 68 pin PGA grid intended to plug into a 286 socket, so if that thing will line up with the socket in your Model 60 when the MCA part is installed it’s mystery solved why its CPU is missing. (Which it looks like it will if you put it in the right slot.)

      That CPU isn’t a “real” 486, it’s one of those Cyrix designed 386sx-with-pixie-dust-and-unicorns chips, which means it’s almost directly electrically compatible with a 286, so there should be no need to have the original CPU on some missing other piece. Just straighten the pins carefully on that adapter dingus and see if you can get it all lined up.
      My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

      Comment


        #4
        ... it is interesting that the memory carrier card the CPU card parasites onto has a 32 bit MCA connector and those adapters look like they have a 386 pin out. My guess is the company sold different kits for 386 PS/2s that shared some common parts. But the CPU board you have is definitely a 286-only upgrade.

        RAM boards with 32 bit connectors that would also work in 16 bit MCA slots *were* a thing, so, yeah, I think itís set up as intended for a Model 60. Dunno why you have the other pieces.
        My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
          That CPU isnít a ďrealĒ 486, itís one of those Cyrix designed 386sx-with-pixie-dust-and-unicorns chips, which means itís almost directly electrically compatible with a 286, so there should be no need to have the original CPU on some missing other piece. Just straighten the pins carefully on that adapter dingus and see if you can get it all lined up.

          Those 486dlc chips are pretty potent for what they are. I'm running one in a formerly standard 386 machine and it's a significant boost in power.

          If you want to put the model 60 back to stock I think I have a spare 512k ram and a 10mhz 286. Would love to have that card for my model 60 if you ever think of selling or trading it off. Mine is gonna have a risc card from an Academic System and I kind of want to make it as ludicrous as possible

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by RadRacer203 View Post
            Those 486dlc chips are pretty potent for what they are. I'm running one in a formerly standard 386 machine and it's a significant boost in power.
            To be clear, I wasn't really meaning to slag on the 486SLC, they were significantly faster than a regular 386sx, especially if the cache was working properly. (Which is worth remembering: that card may require a driver to work at full speed.) Just noting it's not an according-to-Hoyle "real" 32-bit bus 486, which would require a lot more work to squeeze into a 286 upgrade and would be kneecapped so badly in the process that it probably wouldn't be worth the effort.
            My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

            Comment


              #7
              I was able to find THIS LINK which describes the card being used in a model 50 as a processor upgrade.

              the 32bit interface is only for when the car is being used as a 32bit memory upgrade card without the CPU daughter board.

              as it happens the card does fit into the model 60 & has the model 60 specific CPU cable thingy.

              in the box with the card were model 50 adapters, and adapters that seem to be for a different Xtend adapter i didn't get. as they seem to have either 386 or 486 sockets in different configurations. no idea what card or systems each one is for however.

              interestingly enough, the Model 60 with the Xtend card does not require memory on the planar board to function. (as both my model 60's have no system memory on the planar when i got them)

              I so far have managed to get the model 60 to post with the usual errors you would expect. But I don't have a functional floppy drive as again, both model 60's i got had their floppy drives removed.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by RadRacer203 View Post
                Those 486dlc chips are pretty potent for what they are. I'm running one in a formerly standard 386 machine and it's a significant boost in power.

                If you want to put the model 60 back to stock I think I have a spare 512k ram and a 10mhz 286. Would love to have that card for my model 60 if you ever think of selling or trading it off. Mine is gonna have a risc card from an Academic System and I kind of want to make it as ludicrous as possible
                I ended up with a second Model 60, and it is missing the Ram aswell. so i may be interested shoot me a PM.

                I'd like to have a chance to play with this upgrade card, but if i decide after playing with it I'm not interested and would rather a stock machine I will certainly let you know.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by pinkdonut666 View Post
                  interestingly enough, the Model 60 with the Xtend card does not require memory on the planar board to function. (as both my model 60's have no system memory on the planar when i got them)
                  I have a vague memory that the PS/2 model 50 and 60 could both run without planar memory when fitted with a Microchannel memory card, and that there were actually specific valid reasons for doing that. (Google "QEMM 50/60", the TL;DR I believe was that if you yanked the Planar memory you could use the microchannel RAM to backfill the entire conventional memory space with page-able RAM which was great for use with Desqview and similar software. Of course, having a 386 upgrade kind of negates that because paging is built into the CPU.)
                  My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
                    PS/2 model 50 and 60 could both run without planar memory when fitted with a Microchannel memory card,
                    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/CPU/xtend.html

                    "interestingly enough, the Model 60 with the Xtend card does not require memory on the planar board to function. (as both my model 60's have no system memory on the planar when i got them)"

                    I've not looked at this adapter for years. Note the flex cable has pins, and that it plugs into the 286 socket on the system board. So, at first I didn't believe you could bring this up sans systemboard memory, -BUT- the card plugs into the socket... Probably. Unlike the AOX MicroMaster / Kingston McMaster, the Xtend does not have a CPU that is only accessed over the MCA bus [my SWAG, suppose anything is possible].

                    Never really grokked that...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
                      I have a vague memory that the PS/2 model 50 and 60 could both run without planar memory when fitted with a Microchannel memory card, and that there were actually specific valid reasons for doing that. (Google "QEMM 50/60", the TL;DR I believe was that if you yanked the Planar memory you could use the microchannel RAM to backfill the entire conventional memory space with page-able RAM which was great for use with Desqview and similar software. Of course, having a 386 upgrade kind of negates that because paging is built into the CPU.)
                      Wow. So just to humor me, pull all the systemboard memory from a 50 or 60 PS/2, add a 2-8MB IBM card [I'd guess 2MB minimum] and boot.

                      http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/misc/..._Mem_Expansion

                      It might be possible that will work. If it works, woo-hoo!

                      https://www.osnews.com/story/29667/r...-ps2-model-50/

                      Notfinding anything yet in RETAIN tips, but maybe it wasn't supported by IBM...
                      Last edited by ardent-blue; April 6, 2020, 02:49 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ardent-blue View Post
                        Wow. So just to humor me, pull all the systemboard memory from a 50 or 60 PS/2, add a 2-8MB IBM card [I'd guess 2MB minimum] and boot.
                        I've never owned a PS/2 and likely never will (not at the prices they're going for these days...), so it won't be me testing it.

                        Here's a note from the "Quarterdeck frequency asked questions" document floating around the web:

                        QEMM-50/60 6.0 (not sure about minor version number)
                        Similar to QEMM-386, but specifically for PS/2 models 50 and 60
                        which are 80286-based machines. It will only work with certain
                        memory expansion boards and requires disabling of motherboard
                        memory. For more details, get the QOS tech note QEMM5060.TEC,
                        available from SIMTEL20 and other sites (see Q7).
                        Here's a link to that document. Reading this:

                        Q: Do I need to disable my motherboard memory in order to use QEMM-50/60?

                        A: Not for regular use of exPANDed memory. However, in order to multitask
                        successfully on 80286 systems with Quarterdeck's DESQview environment,
                        reducing the amount of conventional memory is recommended. (While it is
                        possible to multitask under DESQview using only conventional memory, one is
                        limited to running programs that can fit together into 640K minus DESQview's
                        own overhead.) When conventional memory is reduced, expanded memory can fill
                        in the rest up to 640K, and multiple programs can be run in exPANDed memory.
                        If you are planning on multitasking with DESQview, remove the "X=0000-9FFF"
                        parameter from the QEMM.SYS line in your CONFIG.SYS file, and QEMM-50/60 will
                        automatically take care of everything for you.
                        Maybe what was meant by that was disabling it in *software*, not literally pulling the RAM off the board, but, again, not my circus, not my monkeys, so I can't say. It's been a *loooong* time since I read the one review of this software that went into any more detail than the ads.
                        Last edited by Eudimorphodon; April 6, 2020, 04:33 PM.
                        My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
                          I've never owned a PS/2 and likely never will (not at the prices they're going for these days...), so it won't be me testing it.

                          Here's a note from the "Quarterdeck frequency asked questions" document floating around the web:



                          Here's a link to that document. Reading this:

                          Maybe what was meant by that was disabling it in *software*, not literally pulling the RAM off the board, but, again, not my circus, not my monkeys, so I can't say. It's been a *loooong* time since I read the one review of this software that went into any more detail than the ads.
                          The AOX can work in one of three modes, one of which has the system boot with systemboard memory, then it transfers all memory requests to the on-card memory. I'd wager that is what is going on here.

                          http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/CPU/m...Memory_Options

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Eudimorphodon View Post
                            I've never owned a PS/2 and likely never will (not at the prices they're going for these days...), so it won't be me testing it.

                            Here's a note from the "Quarterdeck frequency asked questions" document floating around the web:



                            Here's a link to that document. Reading this:



                            Maybe what was meant by that was disabling it in *software*, not literally pulling the RAM off the board, but, again, not my circus, not my monkeys, so I can't say. It's been a *loooong* time since I read the one review of this software that went into any more detail than the ads.
                            Ahh, I understand the concept. Reduced system planar RAM leaves a hole in the <= A000h segment memory space, certain EXPANDED memory adapters can map into this hole and their related EMS driver(s), and/or QEMM50/60 can map their EMS window into this hole thus providing a pageable region below the 640KB line. I'm unfamiliar with the 286-based PS/2s, so can't comment on which adapters and/or software can perform this sort of trick. It may be EXTENDED memory adapters can backfill memory below the 640KB line and QEMM50/60 handle that situation too, again not something I've experience of.

                            EMS 3.2 drivers only provide up to 64KB window, so a 512KB planar complement is all that's required.
                            EMS 4.0 I can't remember and don't know what QEMM50/60 can handle.
                            Last edited by WBST; April 8, 2020, 02:35 PM.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X