Announcement

Collapse

Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

FDD 8" NEC FD1165-H version Track 0 problem

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    FDD 8" NEC FD1165-H version Track 0 problem

    I have this NEC FD1165-H version 8" floppy drive attached to PC with FDADAP DBit adapter pcb.
    NECFD1165MaintenanceManualOct1982_108p.pdf
    This service slightly different from my drive, PCB has changes and jumpers not quite the same
    Think dis is the -A version.
    I have the -H version.

    Found internet several -FQ versions, those pcb's look also different.


    Problem is I can read/write f.i. a CP/M disk with program 22DSK142 that reads from cyl 2 till 77 perfect.
    Also can read back those new copied files on a flop on an other 8 in drive in a real system.
    So head alignment must be OK.

    But As I want to read/write with Imagedisk IMD 1.18 it fails with "Disk not ready"
    Both LEDs on the drive are Lid. Flop index 2x then first Led is lid, than after command read 2nd led is Lid and Head load motor spin and door lock
    closes.

    An other 8 inch drive attached to the DOS pc , The Y-Data YD-174 or the Shurgart SA801 are working fine.
    Only this FD1165-H is the trouble.

    Have checked the Ready Lines, changed to pin 12/50p and indeed pin 34/34p goes low.
    Also Track 0 42/50p go's Low when drive reach track 0.
    Head load and Motor spin are OK, drive spins and loads head.

    What could be the trouble that This drive Fails to read Track 0?
    While read and writ from track 2-77 are no problem.

    Are there drives know that Block track 0?
    Thought only by software on particulair systems.

    Thanks,
    Maurice
    20210420_NEC-FD1165H_001.jpg
    20210420_NEC-FD1165H_002.jpg



    #2
    Maurice,
    Have a look at your Image information from the Dunfield utilities IMDA and IMDU. My guess is that your Floppy Disk Controller (FDC)
    does not support the FM track (26 x128 ). I just grabbed the first 8" RC702 Image I located.
    Code:
    IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
    IMD 1.18: 1/03/2021 1:26:41
    
    PICCOLO RC702 8INCH , NU ENKELZIJDIG
    
    ALS DACHT RC702FL2, HAPPACK V1.2 (BACKUP)
    
    PROGRAMMA SCHOOL. ADRESSEN BESTAND AANMAAK
    
    MGH, MRT2021, IMD118
    
    Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
    0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 = 3328 = 0x0D00
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
    1/0 500 kbps DD 15x512
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    D D D D D D D D D D D DE5 D D DE
    You can use the Dunfield Utility TESTFDC (included with Version 1.18 of IMD) to see if your FDC supports FM. Another thing you can do is
    to just copy from Track 1 Side 0 to track 77 side 0 with IMD. See if that works. If it does you can append the FM Track of your .RAW file
    to the RAW (Sector Dump) Image you created by saving Tracks {1..77} Side 0 to the FM track Zero with the BIN2IMD Utility, by using the
    *.B2I file. NOTE: if you do this you MUST use the updated BIN2IMD that Mr. Dunfield has just fixed. PM me for the latest Version as he
    has not updated his website yet. It does work correctly now, as I've tested it.

    A *.B2I file I have is as follows:
    Code:
    ;
    ;DM=0 -> FM SD 500 kbps
    ;DM=1 -> FM SD 300 kbps
    ;DM=2 -> FM SD 250 kbps
    ;DM=3 -> MFM DD 500 kbps
    ;DM=4 -> MFM DD 300 kbps
    ;DM=5 -> MFM DD 250 kbps
    ;
    ;
    ;FOR CYL 0 SIDE 0 USE DM0=X, SS0=X, SM0=X
    ;FOR CYL 0 SIDE 1 USE DM1=X, SS1=X, SM1=X
    ;
    ;
    ; Example command option file to demonstrate a 40 Cylinder
    ; double-sided disk which is formatted 10x256 bytes sectors
    ; at 250kbps FM on the first two Cylinders, and 10x512 byte
    ; sectors at 250kbps MFM on the remaining 38 Cylinders.
    ;
    ;0 N=40 DM=2 SS=256 SM=1-10 /2
    ;2 DM=5 SS=512 SM=1-10 /2
    ;
    ;
    ;
    ;Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
    ; 0/0 250 kbps SD 16x128 = 2048 = 0x800
    ; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    ; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
    ; 0/1 500 kbps DD 16x256
    ; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    ; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
    ; 1/0 500 kbps DD 9x512
    ; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
    ; D D D D D D D D D
    ; 1/1 D DE5 D DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5
    ;
    ;
    ;BIN2IMD RCEMY2.RAW RCEMY2.IMD RCEMY2.B2I
    ;
    ;0 N=77 DM0=2 SS0=128 SM=0-15 DM1=3 SS1=256
    ;1 DM=3 SS=512 SM=0-8 /2
    ;
    ;
    ;
    ;
    ; 0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 = 3328 = 0x0D00
    ; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    ; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
    ; 1/0 500 kbps DD 15x512
    ; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    ; D D D D D D D D D D D DE5 D D DE5
    ; 2/0 D D D D D DE5 D D D DE5 D D D DE5 D
    ; 3/0 D DE5 D D D DE5 D D D D D D DE5 D D
    ;
    ; 77 tracks Track 0 500 kbps 26 x 128
    ; Track 1 500 kbps 15 x 512
    ;
    ;BIN2IMD RC702.RAW RC702.IMD RC702.B2I
    ;
    ;PICCOLO RC702 8 INCH SETTING WRITING ON 8 INCH HIGH DENSITY DRIVE
    0 N=77 DM0=0 SS0=128 SM0=1-26
    1 DM=3 SS=512 SM=1-15
    So, you could append your Tracks {1..77} to Track 0 and use this command to build the file.

    $BIN2IMD RC702.RAW RC702.IMD RC702.B2I


    Larry
    Last edited by ldkraemer; May 12, 2021, 05:32 AM. Reason: TYPO

    Comment


      #3
      Larry,
      Thanks for this info,
      Back in Okt2020 I tested the PC Floppy controller with the YDATA-YD174 8"drive RC762 from Piccolo, I used to read those disks.

      As I was tired of switching that drive from one computer to the other, disconnecting and connecting, starting, etc.
      I found this NEC FD1165-H with power suplly, nice in 60's style case.

      If this drive could not read track 0 , fi.i with ImageDisk I suspect with option (A)-Analyse, I just can not read the data.
      But Imagedisk refuse to even LOOK at track 0.
      The same disk I use with the YD-174 drive it just reads fine in ImageDisk.

      But I Go Look again to find the problem you mentioned
      Here's the test with drive YD-174 from RC702 cpu.
      20210207_P166-met RC762-8inch.jpg

      Comment


        #4
        I see the problem now, IMD is testing 250k DD and 500k SD at track 0.
        I did try settings 250k->300k and 300k->250k but will not help the problem.
        Looking at specs Both drives FD1165 and YD-174 both look the same.
        YD-174 250 Bits/sec and FD1165 31,25 Bytes/s (that is times 8 also 250k Bits/s)
        Both spins at 360 RPM.
        I get a FDC Interrupt Error with FD1165, Disk spins,heads positions back and forth.

        Typical. that YD-174 rating is 250k/s and I can read that with IMD at 300k
        At FD1165-H there is a Jumper "HD" , may be High-Dens? Did strapp that but no luck.
        Results TESTFDC with the FD1165-Drive:
        20210513_TestFDC-Commodor-P166_FD1165H.jpg
        FD1165-YD-174-specs.jpg
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #5
          The trick with IMD118 to skip track 0 and 1 also NOT and fails with "No Interrupt from FDC".
          As the disk spins and Head is stepping to track 2 as supposed to.Than the error occores.
          IMD indicates with XX to exclude those Track 0 and 1.
          20210513_skipT01.jpg

          Comment


            #6
            If I use 22DSK142, the FD1165-H just works fine in that PC with that Floppy Controller that basically refused all options when testing testfdc.com FD1165H.
            But, If I try to format the Floppy disk with 22dsk142, it also Fails.

            Reading DIR with the FD1165 of a Flop made with drive YD-174,
            Than with the FD1165H , Copy File From Hard Disk To Floppy, Reading the contents of new copied file.
            the FD1165 seems to work as it should. Can even read the file.
            Think 22DSK142 does something with that Bit/s rate? convert 250k to 300k or so? But then the YD-174 is also 250k/500k and IMD just works fine with that drive.
            20210513_22DSK142-DIR.jpg
            20210513_22DSK142-Copy.jpg
            20210513_22DSK142-ReadFile.jpg

            Comment


              #7
              Maurice,
              You could try slowing the NEC FD1165-H drive from 300 RPM to 290 RPM as the IMD-118
              Manual states on P.21.

              4.2 Slowing the drive

              The 765 FDC used in the IBM PC has limitations which are stricter
              than the WD 17xx/27xx controllers used in many vintage systems.
              One such limitation is that the 765 cannot handle the smaller gap
              times used on some disks, and can have trouble reading them.

              A useful trick is to slow down the drive to around 290 RPM - this
              often allows enough extra time that the 765 controller can handle
              the disk.

              Many disk drives have a potentiometer on the motor control circuit
              board which allows adjustment to the drive speed. You can use the
              Test RPM function to check your drive speed, and then RESET it to
              300 RPM.

              Larry



              Comment


                #8
                Not a good idea. If you have an FDC capable of 1.44M or 1.2M diskette support, then the speed of the 8" drive needs to be 360 RPM. If you wanted to use the original 5150 disk controller, you'd have to slow the spindle speed to 180 RPM. (cf. the not-very successful Welltech 1.2M drive for 5150). The problem is that the induced EMF in the drive head is proportional to the linear speed of the medium. Slow the drive by half and your signal level drops by half.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Did a hook-up and connected the FD1165H to the Piccolo RC702 (that uses 2x YD-174 8inch) , now every thing is wrong. Head load is very slow, often not even lowering the heads and stepping head is back and forth on same track and not indexing to Zero. Yes the Resistor loads are installed at the drive, took them off also, no luck.

                  Chuck has done some really Ingenious with his 22DSK programming ! If only we could figure out that difference, than track back the problem.
                  Its a brain breaker why with 22DSK the drive works as a charm and refuse to work with IMD ANADISK etc.

                  Did try the FD1165H in an other 286 PC, several controllers etc.Even a very old IBM 5150 FDC.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    How about itemizing the jumpers on the NEC drive? My advice in the case of 8" drives is to avoid the Japanese ones, as they can get to be a bit strange. For example, the 1165 can have an on-board data separator and PLL. There were third-party add-on boards to synthesize this behavior when used with other vendors' drives.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      WORKING!

                      Its alway's RFM (Read the F** Manual). I did so several times, Indeed Read about that VCO-Signal, But as pin 48 and 50 are empty and NO jumpers to disable that specific VCO,
                      and as VCO, was an Option|(To the -A VERSION! That is),I presumed It was Not installed, but it is!, THIS drive seems to be always operating WITH VCO!

                      So traced back that Pin 24 VCO* line and CUT !! On an obvious location easy to cut, see picture. THEN I also had to place Jumper HD, That was the trick.
                      I did already try that HD jumper before but did not help, So also needed to CUT PIN 24 line.

                      Made a nice cable with D37 conn,(same connector as the RC762 drive) so I can easy connect to the PC.
                      20210515_FD1165H_Working-003.jpg
                      20210515_FD1165H_Working-005.jpg
                      What a Beauty
                      20210515_FD1165H_Working-001.jpg

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X