FDD 8" NEC FD1165-H version Track 0 problem

[MauriceH]

I have this NEC FD1165-H version 8" floppy drive attached to PC with FDADAP DBit adapter pcb.
NECFD1165MaintenanceManualOct1982_108p.pdf
This service slightly different from my drive, PCB has changes and jumpers not quite the same
Think dis is the -A version.
I have the -H version.

Found internet several -FQ versions, those pcb's look also different.


Problem is I can read/write f.i. a CP/M disk with program 22DSK142 that reads from cyl 2 till 77 perfect.
Also can read back those new copied files on a flop on an other 8 in drive in a real system.
So head alignment must be OK.

But As I want to read/write with Imagedisk IMD 1.18 it fails with "Disk not ready"
Both LEDs on the drive are Lid. Flop index 2x then first Led is lid, than after command read 2nd led is Lid and Head load motor spin and door lock
closes.

An other 8 inch drive attached to the DOS pc , The Y-Data YD-174 or the Shurgart SA801 are working fine.
Only this FD1165-H is the trouble.

Have checked the Ready Lines, changed to pin 12/50p and indeed pin 34/34p goes low.
Also Track 0 42/50p go's Low when drive reach track 0.
Head load and Motor spin are OK, drive spins and loads head.

What could be the trouble that This drive Fails to read Track 0?
While read and writ from track 2-77 are no problem.

Are there drives know that Block track 0?
Thought only by software on particulair systems.

Thanks,
Maurice

 

[ldkraemer]

Maurice,
Have a look at your Image information from the Dunfield utilities IMDA and IMDU. My guess is that your Floppy Disk Controller (FDC)
does not support the FM track (26 x128 ). I just grabbed the first 8" RC702 Image I located.

IMageDisk Utility 1.18 / Mar 07 2012
IMD 1.18: 1/03/2021 1:26:41

PICCOLO RC702 8INCH , NU ENKELZIJDIG

ALS DACHT RC702FL2, HAPPACK V1.2 (BACKUP)

PROGRAMMA SCHOOL. ADRESSEN BESTAND AANMAAK

MGH, MRT2021, IMD118

Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 = 3328 = 0x0D00
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
1/0 500 kbps DD 15x512
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
D D D D D D D D D D D DE5 D D DE

You can use the Dunfield Utility TESTFDC (included with Version 1.18 of IMD) to see if your FDC supports FM. Another thing you can do is
to just copy from Track 1 Side 0 to track 77 side 0 with IMD. See if that works. If it does you can append the FM Track of your .RAW file
to the RAW (Sector Dump) Image you created by saving Tracks {1..77} Side 0 to the FM track Zero with the BIN2IMD Utility, by using the
*.B2I file. NOTE: if you do this you MUST use the updated BIN2IMD that Mr. Dunfield has just fixed. PM me for the latest Version as he
has not updated his website yet. It does work correctly now, as I've tested it.

A *.B2I file I have is as follows:

;
;DM=0 -> FM SD 500 kbps
;DM=1 -> FM SD 300 kbps
;DM=2 -> FM SD 250 kbps
;DM=3 -> MFM DD 500 kbps
;DM=4 -> MFM DD 300 kbps
;DM=5 -> MFM DD 250 kbps
;
;
;FOR CYL 0 SIDE 0 USE DM0=X, SS0=X, SM0=X
;FOR CYL 0 SIDE 1 USE DM1=X, SS1=X, SM1=X
;
;
; Example command option file to demonstrate a 40 Cylinder
; double-sided disk which is formatted 10x256 bytes sectors
; at 250kbps FM on the first two Cylinders, and 10x512 byte
; sectors at 250kbps MFM on the remaining 38 Cylinders.
;
;0 N=40 DM=2 SS=256 SM=1-10 /2
;2 DM=5 SS=512 SM=1-10 /2
;
;
;
;Assuming 1:1 for Binary output
; 0/0 250 kbps SD 16x128 = 2048 = 0x800
; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
; 0/1 500 kbps DD 16x256
; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
; 1/0 500 kbps DD 9x512
; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
; D D D D D D D D D
; 1/1 D DE5 D DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5 DE5
;
;
;BIN2IMD RCEMY2.RAW RCEMY2.IMD RCEMY2.B2I
;
;0 N=77 DM0=2 SS0=128 SM=0-15 DM1=3 SS1=256
;1 DM=3 SS=512 SM=0-8 /2
;
;
;
;
; 0/0 500 kbps SD 26x128 = 3328 = 0x0D00
; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
; D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
; 1/0 500 kbps DD 15x512
; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
; D D D D D D D D D D D DE5 D D DE5
; 2/0 D D D D D DE5 D D D DE5 D D D DE5 D
; 3/0 D DE5 D D D DE5 D D D D D D DE5 D D
;
; 77 tracks Track 0 500 kbps 26 x 128
; Track 1 500 kbps 15 x 512
;
;BIN2IMD RC702.RAW RC702.IMD RC702.B2I
;
;PICCOLO RC702 8 INCH SETTING WRITING ON 8 INCH HIGH DENSITY DRIVE
0 N=77 DM0=0 SS0=128 SM0=1-26
1 DM=3 SS=512 SM=1-15

So, you could append your Tracks {1..77} to Track 0 and use this command to build the file.

$BIN2IMD RC702.RAW RC702.IMD RC702.B2I


Larry

 

[MauriceH]

Larry,
Thanks for this info,
Back in Okt2020 I tested the PC Floppy controller with the YDATA-YD174 8"drive RC762 from Piccolo, I used to read those disks.

As I was tired of switching that drive from one computer to the other, disconnecting and connecting, starting, etc.
I found this NEC FD1165-H with power suplly, nice in 60's style case.

If this drive could not read track 0 , fi.i with ImageDisk I suspect with option (A)-Analyse, I just can not read the data.
But Imagedisk refuse to even LOOK at track 0.
The same disk I use with the YD-174 drive it just reads fine in ImageDisk.

But I Go Look again to find the problem you mentioned
Here's the test with drive YD-174 from RC702 cpu.

 

[MauriceH]

I see the problem now, IMD is testing 250k DD and 500k SD at track 0.
I did try settings 250k->300k and 300k->250k but will not help the problem.
Looking at specs Both drives FD1165 and YD-174 both look the same.
YD-174 250 Bits/sec and FD1165 31,25 Bytes/s (that is times 8 also 250k Bits/s)
Both spins at 360 RPM.
I get a FDC Interrupt Error with FD1165, Disk spins,heads positions back and forth.

Typical. that YD-174 rating is 250k/s and I can read that with IMD at 300k
At FD1165-H there is a Jumper "HD" , may be High-Dens? Did strapp that but no luck.
Results TESTFDC with the FD1165-Drive:

 

[MauriceH]

The trick with IMD118 to skip track 0 and 1 also NOT and fails with "No Interrupt from FDC".
As the disk spins and Head is stepping to track 2 as supposed to.Than the error occores.
IMD indicates with XX to exclude those Track 0 and 1.

 

[MauriceH]

If I use 22DSK142, the FD1165-H just works fine in that PC with that Floppy Controller that basically refused all options when testing testfdc.com FD1165H.
But, If I try to format the Floppy disk with 22dsk142, it also Fails.

Reading DIR with the FD1165 of a Flop made with drive YD-174,
Than with the FD1165H , Copy File From Hard Disk To Floppy, Reading the contents of new copied file.
the FD1165 seems to work as it should. Can even read the file.
Think 22DSK142 does something with that Bit/s rate? convert 250k to 300k or so? But then the YD-174 is also 250k/500k and IMD just works fine with that drive.

 

[ldkraemer]

Maurice,
You could try slowing the NEC FD1165-H drive from 300 RPM to 290 RPM as the IMD-118
Manual states on P.21.

4.2 Slowing the drive

The 765 FDC used in the IBM PC has limitations which are stricter
than the WD 17xx/27xx controllers used in many vintage systems.
One such limitation is that the 765 cannot handle the smaller gap
times used on some disks, and can have trouble reading them.

A useful trick is to slow down the drive to around 290 RPM - this
often allows enough extra time that the 765 controller can handle
the disk.

Many disk drives have a potentiometer on the motor control circuit
board which allows adjustment to the drive speed. You can use the
Test RPM function to check your drive speed, and then RESET it to
300 RPM.

Larry

 

[Chuck(G)]

Not a good idea. If you have an FDC capable of 1.44M or 1.2M diskette support, then the speed of the 8" drive needs to be 360 RPM. If you wanted to use the original 5150 disk controller, you'd have to slow the spindle speed to 180 RPM. (cf. the not-very successful Welltech 1.2M drive for 5150). The problem is that the induced EMF in the drive head is proportional to the linear speed of the medium. Slow the drive by half and your signal level drops by half.

 

[MauriceH]

Did a hook-up and connected the FD1165H to the Piccolo RC702 (that uses 2x YD-174 8inch) , now every thing is wrong. Head load is very slow, often not even lowering the heads and stepping head is back and forth on same track and not indexing to Zero. Yes the Resistor loads are installed at the drive, took them off also, no luck.

Chuck has done some really Ingenious with his 22DSK programming ! :D If only we could figure out that difference, than track back the problem.
Its a brain breaker why with 22DSK the drive works as a charm and refuse to work with IMD ANADISK etc.

Did try the FD1165H in an other 286 PC, several controllers etc.Even a very old IBM 5150 FDC.

 

[Chuck(G)]

How about itemizing the jumpers on the NEC drive? My advice in the case of 8" drives is to avoid the Japanese ones, as they can get to be a bit strange. For example, the 1165 can have an on-board data separator and PLL. There were third-party add-on boards to synthesize this behavior when used with other vendors' drives.

 

[MauriceH]

WORKING! :D:D:D:D:D:D

Its alway's RFM (Read the F** Manual). I did so several times, Indeed Read about that VCO-Signal, But as pin 48 and 50 are empty and NO jumpers to disable that specific VCO,
and as VCO, was an Option|(To the -A VERSION! That is),I presumed It was Not installed, but it is!, THIS drive seems to be always operating WITH VCO!

So traced back that Pin 24 VCO* line and CUT !! On an obvious location easy to cut, see picture. THEN I also had to place Jumper HD, That was the trick.
I did already try that HD jumper before but did not help, So also needed to CUT PIN 24 line.

Made a nice cable with D37 conn,(same connector as the RC762 drive) so I can easy connect to the PC.


What a Beauty :D