IBM 5170 6mhz board won't boot.. "dead"

[offensive_Jerk]

I've got an earlier version IBM 5170 board with the piggy-back ram and 6mhz 286 that appears dead. No video, no beep. I got it as parts and put them all together.

I've tried swapping the PSU with a different PSU that works and same results. I've also tried reseating the socketed chips including the CPU.

It had two banks of RAM filled. I removed one bank and set the jumper to 256k setting and tried swapping the ram modules around and still didn't boot.

I bought some extra RAM on ebay types MT1128-15 4128P and TMS41128A-15NL. Not enough to completely fill one whole bank, but I tried different combinations of new and old and still didn't boot. Unless most of the RAM chips failed, I suspect something else is hosed.

I then installed an ISA post card. Not sure how to read it though. The directions for the card are poorly translated from China. There are two sets of LED displays and it shows 02 01 when I turn the computer on. not sure what that means in IBM POST code lingo. Am I only supposed to read one of the segmented LED displays?

 

[SpidersWeb]

201 - Memory Test Failed

If you can write an EPROM, I strongly recommend the Supersoft/Landmark diagnostic ROMs as a time saver.

 

[IndirectX9]

Sounds like some chip(s) in Ram Bank 0 died; I suggest filling the bank with the new RAM first, and after that, there should be video and then a 201 error
If that doesn't work, then there may be a contact problem within the socket(s), and I would check for corrosion or loose socket pins on that bank. Also, Swapping chips within the bank will not identify a faulty one.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

Yeah I've tried swapping chips until my fingers bled. The only way I can burn a eeprom is with my xt-ode card, would that work?

 

[modem7]

I then installed an ISA post card. Not sure how to read it though. The directions for the card are poorly translated from China. There are two sets of LED displays and it shows 02 01 when I turn the computer on. not sure what that means in IBM POST code lingo. Am I only supposed to read one of the segmented LED displays?

The output of each 'checkpoint' in the POST of the IBM 5170 is a byte, not a 16-bit word. My understanding of the operation of POST cards containing dual 7-segment displays is that one display shows the 'current' POST code, and the other display shows the previous POST code.

If that is your scenario, then the "02" is the relevant code.

Per below (source: IBM 5170 Technical Reference), what checkpoint 02 does varies according to the the revision of IBM BIOS fitted:
01/10/84: 02 = About to "VERIFY AND CLEAR SHUTDOWN FLAG" (this is a location in the CMOS/RTC chip)
06/10/85: 02 = About to verify that the checksum of the BIOS ROM chips are good.
11/15/85: 02 = About to verify that the checksum of the BIOS ROM chips are good.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

The output of each 'checkpoint' in the POST of the IBM 5170 is a byte, not a 16-bit word. My understanding of the operation of POST cards containing dual 7-segment displays is that one display shows the 'current' POST code, and the other display shows the previous POST code.

If that is your scenario, then the "02" is the relevant code.

Per below (source: IBM 5170 Technical Reference), what checkpoint 02 does varies according to the the revision of IBM BIOS fitted:
01/10/84: 02 = About to "VERIFY AND CLEAR SHUTDOWN FLAG" (this is a location in the CMOS/RTC chip)
06/10/85: 02 = About to verify that the checksum of the BIOS ROM chips are good.
11/15/85: 02 = About to verify that the checksum of the BIOS ROM chips are good.

According you your site I have the 1st revision BIOS chips. Now I have to look at the CMOS/RTC chip?

 

[offensive_Jerk]

Also, I have some bios chips I yanked from a dead corroded 286 board somewhere. Could I put those in this AT? I think I remembered something about a low and high bios chip. Which one would go where?
Also, I could probably pull the BIOS chips I have from the last model 5710 type 3. Would it even be worth messing with that since I most likely have some sort of CMOS / RTC error?

 

[modem7]

POST card

A reminder of my earlier, "if that is your scenario". I cannot guarantee that your POST card is behaving as I suspect that it does. Before proceeding on a presumption of code 02, how about trying the following experiment.

Plug the POST card into your (working) type 3 motherboard. That will have the third revision of IBM BIOS. Disconnect everything from the motherboard except for the POST card and power supply. Turn on the power supply. On my type 3 motherboard, in the same situation, the codes flashing past on the POST card stop at [3F][40] after about 25 seconds.

If I power off then remove one of the two parity RAM chips ("BIT PH" or "BIT PL") and then power on, then I see the displays alternating between [DD][00] and [00][DD]. This is the POST sending [DD] and [00] in a continuous alternating pattern, e.g. [DD] then [00] then [DD] then [00] then [DD] then [00] ...

If you are seeing the above too, then your POST card behaves like mine (current POST code and previous POST code). Therefore, with your type 1 motherboard, the 02 that you see in [02][01] is the final POST code output by the BIOS.

 

[modem7]

Also, I have some bios chips I yanked from a dead corroded 286 board somewhere. Could I put those in this AT?

Might the board's BIOS chips be part of the "corroded" damage, i.e. in the 5170, you would be replacing ROMs of unknown status (yet to be checksummed) with ROMs of unknown status (could be 'dead').

Also, I could probably pull the BIOS chips I have from the last model 5710 type 3. Would it even be worth messing with that since I most likely have some sort of CMOS / RTC error?

Yes. Worth a try, particularly because it is easy to do.

 

[modem7]

According you your site I have the 1st revision BIOS chips. Now I have to look at the CMOS/RTC chip?

Assuming a 02 POST code from a 01/10/84 BIOS, my opinion is "not just yet".

Analogies are never perfect, but here goes: Imagine you finding a vintage car (IBM 5170) in a completely unknown working order. Unsuccessfully, you try to start the car - the starter motor does not turn at all. You suspect the battery. You bring out your trusty voltmeter, and measure battery voltage (CMOS/RTC chip) from the cigarette lighter socket (CPU). You measure 0 volts. A dead battery may be the cause, but so are the things between the battery (CMOS/RTC chip) and the lighter socket (CPU), e.g. cigarette lighter fuse, damaged cigarette lighter wiring.

I think that you should proceed in obtaining the Supersoft/Landmark Diagnostic ROMs, and seeing what they indicate.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

I swapped the BIOS chips with my other AT with the type 3 motherboard. Nada.
I plugged the post card back in and this time the display shows 0302.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

POST card

A reminder of my earlier, "if that is your scenario". I cannot guarantee that your POST card is behaving as I suspect that it does. Before proceeding on a presumption of code 02, how about trying the following experiment.

Plug the POST card into your (working) type 3 motherboard. That will have the third revision of IBM BIOS. Disconnect everything from the motherboard except for the POST card and power supply. Turn on the power supply. On my type 3 motherboard, in the same situation, the codes flashing past on the POST card stop at [3F][40] after about 25 seconds.

If I power off then remove one of the two parity RAM chips ("BIT PH" or "BIT PL") and then power on, then I see the displays alternating between [DD][00] and [00][DD]. This is the POST sending [DD] and [00] in a continuous alternating pattern, e.g. [DD] then [00] then [DD] then [00] then [DD] then [00] ...

If you are seeing the above too, then your POST card behaves like mine (current POST code and previous POST code). Therefore, with your type 1 motherboard, the 02 that you see in [02][01] is the final POST code output by the BIOS.

After swapping the bios and getting code 03, I tried the above. My post card gave the exact results you described.

 

[modem7]

After swapping the bios and getting code 03, ...

Good. That is what we expect for the third revision of BIOS - IBM have the "VERIFY AND CLEAR SHUTDOWN FLAG" check at 03.

... I tried the above. My post card gave the exact results you described.

We are now 100% confident in the interpretation of your card's display.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

I think that you should proceed in obtaining the Supersoft/Landmark Diagnostic ROMs, and seeing what they indicate.

OK.......So...... (necropost..I know it's been a long time, but I finally got around to playing with this.)

Current setup: Only a monochrome card is inserted, and the switch flipped to the rear position on the motherboard. I have only one bank of RAM inserted from when I messed with it last time.

I had someone burn and send me the Supersoft ROMS. I put them into their respective sockets.
Turn the board on, and......Nothing. Keyboard lights blink, go out, nothing else happens. The power LED does illuminate, however. I then swap the bank of ram into the other bank and insert other RAM into the first bank. Now, all RAM banks are populated.

Flip the power. Same thing.... Nothing.

I then scratch my head and consider what to do next, so on a whim, I removed the monochrome card and power up with no video card at all installed. No cards are plugged in.
Flip the switch, and I get an alarm type sound from the speaker. Two-tone beep from the speaker that repeats very quickly.

I then swap out for a VGA card, and played with different combinations on the motherboard switch. Motherboard continues to beep with the VGA card.

Put a different monochrome card in (Persyst Mono II) and connect the 5151 monitor just in case the other MDA card was bad.
Flip the switch and, nothing. No sounds, no beeps, no video.

I put the original BIOS chips back in and powered up without a video card to see what happened. No beeps.

So, in short, when there is no video card installed, or a VGA card installed, the computer beeps when the Supersoft BIOS is installed. With the IBM BIOS, I cannot get it to do anything.

Another Question: Would it hurt anything to put a faster 286 in the board (10 or 8mhz) just to see if the processor is bad?

 

[modem7]

With the IBM BIOS, I cannot get it to do anything.

Via a POST card, you have already deduced that the POST in the IBM BIOS fails on a very early test (test 02 in first BIOS revision, test 03 in later BIOS revisions).
We expect no beeps nor video, because that is the nature of failures of early tests in IBM BIOS' - the POST simply halts the CPU.

I had someone burn and send me the Supersoft ROMS. I put them into their respective sockets.
Turn the board on, and......Nothing. Keyboard lights blink, go out, nothing else happens. The power LED does illuminate, however. I then swap the bank of ram into the other bank and insert other RAM into the first bank. Now, all RAM banks are populated.

Note that the Supersoft ROM diagnostics display something on-screen even if the motherboard has no RAM fitted.

I then scratch my head and consider what to do next, so on a whim, I removed the monochrome card and power up with no video card at all installed. No cards are plugged in.
Flip the switch, and I get an alarm type sound from the speaker. Two-tone beep from the speaker that repeats very quickly.

With my good early 5170 motherboard, if I insert the Supersoft ROM diagnostics, remove the video card, then power up the motherboard, I hear the beep pattern of [six hi-lo tones followed by a short tone]. That is expected. It is the Supersoft ROM diagnostics telling me that it could not initialise a compatible video card. I know that because the beep patterns for the AT version of the Supersoft ROM diagnostics are listed on pages 40 and 41 of the Supersoft manual at [here].

If you listen long enough, is that what you hear - six of those "Two-tone" beeps followed by a single short beep? Then, the same pattern of beeps repeats over and over.

I then swap out for a VGA card, and played with different combinations on the motherboard switch. Motherboard continues to beep with the VGA card.

No point in trying a VGA card. The Supersoft ROM diagnostics does not support it. I would expect the same symptoms as if no video card was installed.

Note too that the Supersoft ROM diagnostics are not reliant on motherboard switches/jumpers being set in any particular way.

Put a different monochrome card in (Persyst Mono II) and connect the 5151 monitor just in case the other MDA card was bad.
Flip the switch and, nothing. No sounds, no beeps, no video.

The lack of beeps suggests that the Supersoft ROM initialised the card, then started running its tests (but for some unknown reason, you see nothing on the display).

I put the original BIOS chips back in and powered up without a video card to see what happened. No beeps.

As expected. (Per my first comment above.)

Another Question: Would it hurt anything to put a faster 286 in the board (10 or 8mhz) just to see if the processor is bad?

No.

 

[Stone]

It had two banks of RAM filled. I removed one bank and set the jumper to 256k setting and tried swapping the ram modules around and still didn't boot.

I bought some extra RAM on ebay types MT1128-15 4128P and TMS41128A-15NL. Not enough to completely fill one whole bank, but I tried different combinations of new and old and still didn't boot. Unless most of the RAM chips failed, I suspect something else is hosed.

Since it only takes one bad chip to kill the bank you really need at least one good bank of known good chips to really be able to determine anything concrete. Otherwise you might just be spinning your wheels.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

Since it only takes one bad chip to kill the bank you really need at least one good bank of known good chips to really be able to determine anything concrete. Otherwise you might just be spinning your wheels.

Wasn't that the point of getting the Supersoft ROMS?

Note that the Supersoft ROM diagnostics display something on-screen even if the motherboard has no RAM fitted.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

If you listen long enough, is that what you hear - six of those "Two-tone" beeps followed by a single short beep? Then, the same pattern of beeps repeats over and over.

Yes, this is what I hear. Anything else I can try? The 10mhz cpu didn't work either. I'll try a CGA card/Monitor and see what happens, but after that I'm stumped.

 

[modem7]

I just tried the combination of the Supersoft ROMs and a clone MDA card in one of my early (and functional) 5170s, and I am hearing the 'no video card, or cannot initialise video card' beep pattern.
I then tried an IBM CGA card and an IBM EGA card - same beep pattern.
!!!!!
So right now, I appear to be seeing (hearing) what you are. Of course, I am going to do some experimentation to work out what is going on.

 

[offensive_Jerk]

I just tried the combination of the Supersoft ROMs and an IBM MDA card in one of my early (and functional) 5170s, and I am hearing the 'no video card, or cannot initialise video card' beep pattern.
I then tried an IBM CGA card and an IBM EGA card - same beep pattern.
!!!!!
So right now, I appear to be seeing (hearing) what you are. Of course, I am going to do some experimentation to work out what is going on.

I d been fooling with this thing. I can't get it to boot with the ibm chs card or a Persydtm color II. Just makes the alarm noise