Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

Why the bleep is eBay so expensive??

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • AndyO
    replied
    Originally posted by whartung View Post
    The thing, to me, about the mid-range stuff, is that it's spectacularly uninteresting.

    It's uninteresting because it's not changing much. Throughout the late 70s, 80s, and even early 90s, we were all on the rising tide that lifts all boats. Moore's law was in full swing and had dramatic impact on day to day activity. "You mean I have the memory and CPU for free, on the fly spell checking now?".

    But then, PC's plateaued. They've been "fast enough" for the longest time.

    Manufacturing got more sophisticated, for sure. There's still some exotic hardware to a point, but in the end, it all feels the same.....
    While all of this is certainly true, I think a time machine ride back to something like 1995 or 2000 would reveal users thinking the same kind of thing - that all they were seeing coming onto the market were new versions of the same thing that could go a bit faster, do a bit more, but were largely the same as the model(s) before. The problem really is that even by then, all the new markets for the use of these systems had happened - with the possible exception of video editing and the internet.

    It is what we use systems for that marks how they will be remembered, and it really isn't until the dust has settled a bit on history that it becomes a little more than merely what version of Word we had, or which flavour of Windows.

    Admittedly, I am speaking as a user of vintage systems, but the reason I value them so much is that they didn't have the power or resources to support all the bloat and garbage we habitually deal with today, the always-on interfaces providing constant demands for attention. Yet, I'd bet that whatever the systems that people will be using in another 20, 30 or even 50 years, they'll look back on what we have now and be curious to know why these systems were used, and want to try them out for themselves.

    Nostalgia. It'll look cool then, once people have something a lot worse than Windows 10 to contend with in their systems every day!

    Leave a comment:


  • Unknown_K
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill-kun View Post
    I shudder to think that some eBay asking prices I am seeing are justified. There is one that I have my eye on that is a beautiful, unique aesthetic, but I can’t justify the sale price plus shipping for what they say is sold-as-parts-only since they can’t/won’t get it working.
    People sell things as for parts because they can refuse returns and refunds. Once items get into the 100's of dollars just for the parts people will buy whole machines just to swap parts out and get a refund. Also some people don't know how to test something made before Windows or don't want to fry something worth serious money (to them).

    Only collectors know the difference between rare and common for specific era machines, sellers tend to find something that looks close and price it around what others are pricing things for.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill-kun
    replied
    Originally posted by charnitz View Post
    When you think of it that way, are the eBay prices that high, or is getting a nice vintage machine (where the seller is actually selling an excellent quality preservation or restoration at a premium) actually a bargain over today's $1000+, usually $2000+ once you upgrade a few things, new machines with bloated software, no manuals, constant updates and reboots, and no end user serviceability?
    I shudder to think that some eBay asking prices I am seeing are justified. There is one that I have my eye on that is a beautiful, unique aesthetic, but I can’t justify the sale price plus shipping for what they say is sold-as-parts-only since they can’t/won’t get it working.

    Leave a comment:


  • charnitz
    replied
    Originally posted by whartung View Post
    But then, PC's plateaued. They've been "fast enough" for the longest time
    ...
    Operating systems have homogenized. We've been running the same Word Processor for 20 years, the only real growth is in GPUs and video games. Interesting for some, perhaps. But most of those continue to work on modern hardware.
    In terms of professional software, is it only 20 years, or is there really anything other than video and multi-track audio editing that couldn't have been done in 1989? I'm finding that the professional software of that time is extremely well-polished and, in some ways, more capable than what we have now, in terms of actually getting the work done and information communicated if it was text, numbers, and illustrations.

    When you think of it that way, are the eBay prices that high, or is getting a nice vintage machine (where the seller is actually selling an excellent quality preservation or restoration at a premium) actually a bargain over today's $1000+, usually $2000+ once you upgrade a few things, new machines with bloated software, no manuals, constant updates and reboots, and no end user serviceability?

    Leave a comment:


  • vwestlife
    replied
    People in their 30s and 40s often start to have nostalgia for their youth. That's why '50s and '60s music became so popular again in the 1980s, and Disco had a comeback in the '90s. And now people in that age bracket are the ones who grew up with '90s PCs that were considered worthless e-waste not too long ago.

    Good news for people like me who never threw any of it away -- bad news for people who did, or never had it to begin with, and now want to buy it.

    Leave a comment:


  • whartung
    replied
    Originally posted by charnitz View Post
    I wonder about this regarding technology in our time. It's really hard to imagine that anyone will want <something on your desk that is not vintage> in 20-40 years, but since we do for things that were produced 20-40 years ago, will they? Maybe an interesting discussion for another thread?
    The thing, to me, about the mid-range stuff, is that it's spectacularly uninteresting.

    It's uninteresting because it's not changing much. Throughout the late 70s, 80s, and even early 90s, we were all on the rising tide that lifts all boats. Moore's law was in full swing and had dramatic impact on day to day activity. "You mean I have the memory and CPU for free, on the fly spell checking now?".

    But then, PC's plateaued. They've been "fast enough" for the longest time.

    Manufacturing got more sophisticated, for sure. There's still some exotic hardware to a point, but in the end, it all feels the same.

    The Unix workstation market vanished, replaced with PCs running Linux or modern Macs. The server marketplace is all Linux based, unless you're into IBM. And even if you did get something like some Power gear, or even Itanium, you're still looking at a $ shell prompt, just like everything else. So, it doesn't feel different, doesn't do anything different.

    Operating systems have homogenized. We've been running the same Word Processor for 20 years, the only real growth is in GPUs and video games. Interesting for some, perhaps. But most of those continue to work on modern hardware.

    So, this middle range is all just gray mush. A blur.

    It will vanish in the history of disinterest, since we can still do everything they did, today on current hardware. So, what's the point of sucking up all the space and taking all the time.

    Apple has the new Apple Silicon hardware. Actually kind of exciting, but when all you see is MacOS, like any other Mac...it gets less interesting.

    Shell prompt. Yay. I can spool up a 100 of those in the Cloud with a mouse click.

    Leave a comment:


  • DDS
    replied
    Originally posted by VERAULT View Post
    It comes in Waves guys. I liked old hardware even in the 80's (we were poor I could only get older stuff) and into the 1990's. I had no idea this would become a "thing" none of us did. And youd be crazy to think that this wont plateau and crash. Do you really thinks 5 year olds today will give a rats ass about an apple II or Commodore 64 (or anything in that genre or older) when they get old enough to have interests in hobbies? This dies with us for the most part..... I'm being buried with my horde in a sunken shipping crate. Noone gets my stash!
    Some will and some won't. Look at some other hobbies for examples. There are actually more 1932 Fords on the roads today than Henry made in 1932. Which is kind of amazing when you take into account how many were collected and melted down in WWII scrap drives. How can that be? The demand for originals outpaced the supply enough to create and nurture a thriving "repop" industry.

    https://brookvilleroadster.com/

    Another company was doing so well restoring Ford Broncos that Ford has brought a modernized version back into production.

    But I'm sorry to break to to you 1960 Mercury fans. There ain't a whole lot of love going around for the ugliest car ever made this side of France.

    Bottom line? If you have an Altair or an IMSAI 8080, hang on to them. Ditto for just about anything DEC. Some things are already selling for more than they did new, and the prices are not likely to be dropping any time soon if ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • VERAULT
    replied
    It comes in Waves guys. I liked old hardware even in the 80's (we were poor I could only get older stuff) and into the 1990's. I had no idea this would become a "thing" none of us did. And youd be crazy to think that this wont plateau and crash. Do you really thinks 5 year olds today will give a rats ass about an apple II or Commodore 64 (or anything in that genre or older) when they get old enough to have interests in hobbies? This dies with us for the most part..... I'm being buried with my horde in a sunken shipping crate. Noone gets my stash!

    Leave a comment:


  • Unknown_K
    replied
    More collectors and less stuff to buy so prices rise.

    The key to a cheap hobby is to collect stuff nobody else wants.

    I was lucky enough to find freecycle back when old computers were literally junk, picked up some stuff on ebay when shipping was cheap and most sellers viewed it as a garage sale and not a money making venture. And I was lucky enough to snag items other collectors wanted gone, stuff that was not worth shipping, and a local recycler who let me buy whatever I wanted at a 2-3x scrap prices.

    These days shipping is expensive, people make a living off of ebay, freecycle is pretty much dead, and most collectors have a long list of people wanting their gear for $$$ (I get PM all the time on forums from people looking to buy something I mentioned in the forum). Also sadly the local recycler went bust which is probably a good thing since I have no room for more machines anyway.

    Then you have scrappers who recycled whole generations of machines.

    So all this talk about why are prices going up is kind of puzzling for me. Even during my weekly trips to the recycler a decade ago most of what was there were P2/P3 machines and they tried to refurb anything P4 and newer. You have to go back 20 years to find cheap Amiga equipment.

    Leave a comment:


  • PeterNC
    replied
    My experience with Offerup and Mercari has been pretty good. Even Facebook Marketplace. You just have to manage it very tightly. When buying I have gotten what I ordered each and every time. Same with selling. However: with selling I am very straightforward: I ask for a pickup one hour from when they respond: in case they do not reply or come up with stories I immediately block them: case closed. Keeps it very manageable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Timo W.
    replied
    If you were in an urgent to sell stuff in order to pay bills, you'll most likely offer it for a very low price so that it sells fast, because you gain nothing if no one buys because of a too-high price. But this was also the case before the pandemic. In Germany, we even have the word "Mondpreise" (lit. prices as high (or far away) as the moon) for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • retro-pc_user
    replied
    Or possibly because of the pandemic they jack up the prices because they have to pay bills or rent somehow.

    Leave a comment:


  • Timo W.
    replied
    Originally posted by retro-pc_user View Post
    You would have to thank LGR and 8-Bit (1-Byte) Guy for getting the prices driving up a long stretch.
    Why? Because they talk about these old hardware and have a large audience? I agree that probably for a short time after they release a new video prices on that item go up - but not in the long run. It's not much different to showing stuff in forums like this to a larger audience. You may catch some people who think: "wow, I need one of that".

    Leave a comment:


  • retro-pc_user
    replied
    You would have to thank LGR and 8-Bit (1-Byte) Guy for getting the prices driving up a long stretch.

    I was lucky to get the Compaq Portable 1 for $133 + S&H and taxes and there's one going for $2,500 ($1,090 under the original 1982 price) that is fully functional and in mint condition. Mine ain't in the best shape, but it's certainly getting a lot of detailing and repairs that are cheap to fix.

    Leave a comment:


  • 8008guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill-kun View Post
    Wow, 29 replies and 415 thread views in less than 24 hours! I must have struck a relatable nerve with everyone!
    No, just really bored.

    In all seriousness, this is a topic that touches all of us, especially those of us that are hobbyists who use and play with our old computers and do not collect for the sake of collecting. It was not long ago that I bought my pdp11 hardware. Today it would cost me many times what I previously payed.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X