Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.

Remain civil and respectful

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Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

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To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
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"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
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Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.

Reporting problematic posts

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If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.

New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.

Other suggestions
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Best PCI graphics card for W98?

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    Originally posted by TShackleton View Post
    I am not sure why you'd put a 3d accelerator in a machine with a first gen Pentium.
    Why wouldn't you? 3D accelerators started coming out in 1995 and continued to gather momentum over the proceeding years while the Pentium was still in it's prime. My very first 3D accelerator in 1996 was on a Pentium 100 which was more than enough to enjoy the limited 3D titles that were available at the time. The second card I ever owned was in 1997 on a now upgraded Pentium 200 MMX.

    So plenty of gamers of that era were quite happily running their 3D accelerators on Pentiums.
    Atari PC | IBM Compatible Series


      Originally posted by Flamin Joe View Post

      Why wouldn't you?
      I mean, you can... but many of the cards suggested weren't of the p1 era, which is why I chimed into an older thread. Many hardware accelerated games required MMX at least (is a P233-MMX, a first gen? that's another question...), and any of them would benefit greatly from the FPU in the p6+. At the time the 3dfx boards, were by far the most popular accelerator and just a passthru anyways. I put a voodoo2 in my p200 system back in the day too, and I promptly upgraded to an overclocked celeron because of it. The fastest or even most featureful card, may not be the best, especially with these early 3d cards, API support was all over the place, drivers were terrible, they required tons of OS patches, etc... and then your hamstrung by an underpowered processor. So I'm not sure why you'd build a P1 for 3d gaming, and if your not gaming, I think a more mainstream video card would be a better choice in many situations. That's just my opinion, since you asked.


        Originally posted by TShackleton View Post
        Many hardware accelerated games required MMX at least
        Not true at all. MMX was poorly received and took years to gain any market share because of the problems it had. One of the major sticking points was that it reused x87 registers, meaning that you couldn't run x87 and MMX code at the same time, you had to pick one or the other, or do some real micro managing and context switching that significantly slowed the CPU down. Games did eventually start becoming MMX aware, and some did take advantage of MMX, but not to the degree it was a night and day performance benefit. Games also almost never explicitly required MMX, because that would have been suicide as a game developer.

        Back in those days, you had at least five different CPU manufacturers, all with their own abilities beyond just being x86 and x87 compatible. MMX was initially an Intel only technology, which means you'd wipe out a huge chunk of your potential install base for no real performance benefit, which is why MMX as a requirement was few and far between.

        Many game developers did latch on to the MMX buzzword though, as Intel was heavily advertising it as being this magical thing that would make your PC faster and better, which was a lie. But their BS marketing campaign made the general public think that it was something better, and companies would just slap the MMX logo on their software to increase sales.

        Originally posted by TShackleton View Post
        (is a P233-MMX, a first gen? that's another question...), and any of them would benefit greatly from the FPU in the p6+.
        No, the Pentium MMX was not a first generation Pentium, that belongs to the original P5 core released back in March of 1993 that was on Socket 4 and ran at speeds of 60 or 66 MHz. The Pentium MMX is the P55C, the fifth major revision of the P5 architecture.

        Also, the P6 is an entirely different architecture from the P5, and no, games at the time did not benefit from it. The P6 architecture had performance problems with mixed 8/16 bit and 16/32 bit code that made it slower in general compared to a P5 arch Pentium at the same clock speed. In pure 32 bit code on the other hand, the Pentium Pro was faster, especially the variants with large caches, like the 1M 200 MHz "black top" versions.