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S100 floppy controller clone?

Roland Huisman

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Does anyone have experience with S100 floppy controller clones? I have a Tei machine for which I want to have a DSDD floppy controller. Initially I was searching for the original one, but I'm afraid that this is impossible... Even when I find the controller there is still no (cp/m) software for it.

But there must be a few DIY alternatives as well. So I'm thinking to built a controller instead. I found the ZFDC project and I wonder if that is a suitable board. Does anyone have experience with that board? Or does anyone have other floppy controller clone projects online?

Regards, Roland
 
which I want to have a DSDD floppy controller.

For which DeRamp's controller, I'm guessing, is not going to fit. I'd already asked in a different threat about conformance with standard 3740 or System/34 encoding and the response was that the encoding is sui generis. If you're talking about 8" DSDD and an 8080-based CPU, it's very difficult to do that without DMA.

If you want 5.25" DSDD, it seems to me that a WD1770/1772/1773-based design would be the simplest.
 
Roland - go to groups.google.com, join the "S100Computers" group, and search on "ZFDC". A lot of experiences have been posted there by people who have built, and are using, the ZFDC floppy controller board. The design does meet the requirements you are looking for, and there is software support for it. The only downside is that you have to assemble it yourself.
 
>> If you're talking about 8" DSDD and an 8080-based CPU, it's very difficult to do that without DMA.

Are you sure? What am I missing here? I have used 5.25" HD floppy drives in place of 8" (most of my 8" drives have long since died) in a number of situations without a problem (and without DMA). I'm no floppy drive expert, but I am told that the 5.25" HD floppy is electrically identical to your typical 8" (high density) drive. I think that a 4 MHz system clock, or higher, *IS* a requirement. DD at 2 or 2.5 MHz is probably not going to work. Maybe one of the more advanced floppy controller chips (such as the WD2793) would ease the process? I believe that the floppy controller used in the "ZFDC" is a WD2793.

Roger
 
>> I believe that the floppy controller used in the "ZFDC" is a WD2793.

Yes, the ZFDC uses a WD2793. The ZFDC also has an on-board Z80 with "firmware" on 32K ROM, and has 32K RAM. This allows the ZFDC to transfer commands and data with any host system using I/O ports, and it does not use DMA.
 
>> If you're talking about 8" DSDD and an 8080-based CPU, it's very difficult to do that without DMA.

Are you sure? What am I missing here? I have used 5.25" HD floppy drives in place of 8" (most of my 8" drives have long since died) in a number of situations without a problem (and without DMA). I'm no floppy drive expert, but I am told that the 5.25" HD floppy is electrically identical to your typical 8" (high density) drive. I think that a 4 MHz system clock, or higher, *IS* a requirement. DD at 2 or 2.5 MHz is probably not going to work. Maybe one of the more advanced floppy controller chips (such as the WD2793) would ease the process? I believe that the floppy controller used in the "ZFDC" is a WD2793.

What's the fastest 8080A CPU clock rate? :) Floppy chip doesn't matter; the data rate and the time required to service it on a 2 MHz 8080A does. The 2793 is pretty much a 1793 with some functions incorporated. In terms of being "advanced', the NEC µPD765 is more so. (witness the Compupro Disk-1 floppy controller).
 
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The Delta Products S100 (also sold as XOR Data Science) FDC will work with a 2mhz 8080. Look on the S100 website for details. The only problem would be in finding one of them for sale.
 
I have experience with only one S-100 disk controller, the Northstar double density controller model MDS-A-D. It just seemed so easy to use and I had no trouble getting it to run with two 5.25" drives and although it was intended for hard sector disks, but with a small inline adapter (VSG) made by Deramp (Mike) it works with soft sector media. So with this board and a pair of 5.25" drives I was able to run CP/M 2.2 without difficulty for my SOL-20. Also the North Star disk operating system works well with it too (as you would expect).

I like the design of the Northstar floppy controller card, uses all standard TTL IC's, three OTP ROMs. To initialize it, its just a matter of typing EX E800 in the SOL, it has a good manual and is easy to repair too. I don't know if anybody has cloned it yet though, but it would be a good target for cloning. This card might suit you, but I am not sure. This card cannot have too many hidden traps, or I would have certainly fallen into one. I have attached a photo of the one I use.
 

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The Delta Products S100 (also sold as XOR Data Science) FDC will work with a 2mhz 8080. Look on the S100 website for details. The only problem would be in finding one of them for sale.

Color me skeptical--I've been through the manual and found no evidence that anything special is done for 2 MHz 8080 operation. I suspect, but cannot confirm that 8080 operation was limited to FM on 8" drives, but MFM was possible on 5.25" drives. Herb Johnson may have some real information on this.
 
Color me skeptical--I've been through the manual and found no evidence that anything special is done for 2 MHz 8080 operation. I suspect, but cannot confirm that 8080 operation was limited to FM on 8" drives, but MFM was possible on 5.25" drives. Herb Johnson may have some real information on this.

Could be. I never tried to use one with a 8080, let alone at 2MHz. Just something I remember reading once.
 
A 2MHz 8080 cannot keep up with the 500 kbit/s rate of 8” MFM or 5.25” HD MFM when using programmed I/O unless the controller uses some sort of FIFO between the CPU and the controller. I’ve used a couple of controllers that do this.

Mike
 
Thanks a lot for the replies. I have two 5.25" DSDD drives in that Tei system. I like the zfdc and I wonder is it is suitable for my 8085 system. Does anyone have a spare bare board for sale?

But I also wondered if there were 100% clone boards made. There were many soft sectored controllers being made in the past. So would it not be great to have just a clone of these? Personally I really like clone boards with the old technology. TTL chips are easy to find... And if there is a weird chip in the design, you can always pick another TTL solution for it. Since there are so many people working with the S100 machines I cant imagine that there is not a 1:1 clone of an original controller... But I guess I'm wrong here...

Regards, Roland
 
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TTL chips are easy to find... And if there is a weird chip in the design, you can always pick another TTL solution for it. Since there are so many people working with the S100 machines I cant imagine that there is not a 1:1 clone of an original controller... But I guess I'm wrong here...

Regards, Roland

Hmm, try finding the quad 64 bit shift register, the TMS3417 used in the Cromemco Dazzler, or a suitable substitute, not very easy.

The reason I have cloned vintage computer pcb's, like the Dazzler and some others, is that they became so rare I couldn't get one. Probably in the case of disk controller cards, not as rare so people have not been pushed down the clone road. For example the Northstar DSDD controller card I mentioned, I could clone it at an initial cost of about $600, plus the IC's. But, these cards are not that rare and come up on ebay from time to time for around $150, fully loaded with IC's, so I would never clone the card for that reason.
 
Hmm, try finding the quad 64 bit shift register, the TMS3417 used in the Cromemco Dazzler, or a suitable substitute, not very easy.
I know some chips are rare, and you can always find a board with an impossible chip on it. But I've designed a few clone boards for PDP8 machines like the VC8E graphics board set, or the RX01/RX02 floppy controller for example. I've kept the original designs but I kicked out all of the hard to find chips and replaced them with more common available TTL chips.

The reason I have cloned vintage computer pcb's, like the Dazzler and some others, is that they became so rare I couldn't get one.
I had exactly the same motivation to clone PDP8 boards.

Probably in the case of disk controller cards, not as rare so people have not been pushed down the clone road. For example the Northstar DSDD controller card I mentioned, I could clone it at an initial cost of about $600, plus the IC's. But, these cards are not that rare and come up on ebay from time to time for around $150, fully loaded with IC's, so I would never clone the card for that reason.
What is the $600 Dollar? I've never had that much costs on my boards to clone... And my designs are free on GitHub including gerber files. But I agree, there is no use of cloning a common board.

To be honest, the most FDC controllers I see on Ebay seem to be the ones where it is impossible to find software for. Or any hardware documentation. I have a pool of TTL chips here and I think I'm not the only one here in the forum. So building a clone from my spares would not be a problem. But since there are so many people working on S100 systems, I expected some floppy controller clones already being on the market. I don't have a problem with cloning a board, but I don't like to clone a card which is already available... Or a common board as you mentioned.

The other thing with the Ebay boards is that most of them are in the USA. This is adding additional costs to a purchase to get it in Europe.

But I agree, it might be smart to wait and see if anything standard comes by on Ebay. The original Tei controller for my system seems impossible to find and even if I find it, there is no software available for it...

But if anyone has a bare ZFDC board for sale, please let me know...

Regards, Roland
 
Thanks for the link!

There are many boards there. Maybe someone wants to have my PDP8 boards on stock as well...? Don't know how the site works, but I like the idea that there is a wide variety of boards represented at one place.
 
My understanding is that the website puts potential purchasers in touch with people who have the boards available for sale. If more than one person has the board available for sale, then the purchaser can make a choice of where to purchase from based on the overall cost (board + shipping).

It depends upon whether you want to get boards made and put them up for sale on the website...

I assume, if there was a call for them, someone may already have got some of your cards manufactured from the Gerbers and put them up already. I suspect, however, that the PDP-8 OMNIBUS market may be a small once compared to a 6502, Z80 or xxx microprocessor board with a monitor and access to CP/M, Flex or whatever.

Dave
 
What is the $600 Dollar? I've never had that much costs on my boards to clone... And my designs are free on GitHub including gerber files. But I agree, there is no use of cloning a common board.

To be honest, the most FDC controllers I see on Ebay seem to be the ones where it is impossible to find software for. Or any hardware documentation.

Regards, Roland

It is very expensive for me doing this in AU. I do not have any pcb software. So I draw the images as jpg's. My PCB maker uses Altium and he regenerates them as pcb files costing more money & his time. But one advantage, I get an exact track artwork match to the original. People who have regenerated the Apple 1 pcb, did not get an exact match to the original. So the replica boards I get made are perfect replicas in every respect, except sometimes I use gold on all the fingers & pads to increase the quality and again it adds up the dollar cost. So I'm a fanatic for the quality of the replica and it adds another layer of cost. Usually, every board I have done works first time with zero revisions.


The N* DSDD controller board I suggested, the hardware manual is online and copies of it appear on the bay from time to time. Also it requires zero software to run it ! (except the usual CP/M operating system, I have CP/M 2.2 48k on my SOL-20. There is also the Northstar DOS, which Mike Douglas has)

All it requires is already built into the firmware of its three OTP PROMS. This is why I love it and recommended it to you. It is "Plug & Play". And, combined with Mike Douglas's virtual sector generator board, it works seamlessly with hard or soft sectored media, with the proviso that the actual 5.25" disk drives you have support hard sectored disks. The ones I use (the YE DATA YD-580) are designed to inhibit the use of hard sectored disks, they are detected by its chipset and the drive disabled, but it doesn't bother me because I do everything on soft sectored disks.(The YE DATA drives are very beautifully made direct drive types though, with minimal speed jitter, super high quality Japanese components & engineering, quite the work of art).

This article shows pictures of these drives built into a Japanese made extruded aluminium enclosure, which also houses Mike's VSG:

https://www.worldphaco.com/uploads/EXTERNAL_DUAL_5.pdf

A tip on soft sectored disks: the later manufactured disks, especially the 3M type DSDD,RH, where the box shows the 1988 world Olympic 5 ring logo appear to have super quality magnetic media and the absence of any read-write issues. I bought a lot of other 5.25" brands, some were hopeless, presumably age degraded.
 
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