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Polymorphic 8813 System Diskette?

C

CPE1704TKS

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
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51
Location
Houston
I just purchased a Polymorphic 8813 that I am looking to restore. However, I do not have a system Diskette for the system. Is anyone here able to make a copy of a system disk for this system?
 
It depends on which disk you are talking about. I can do SDSS disk. The machine is in storage and might take a month or so to get it out, and running. I can read 8 inch DDDS with some time to set it up but doubt I can easily recreate one. Do you have blank disk yet? Does your machine have a serial adapter? If so, it can be bootstrapped but I've never done it on a Poly system.

see:
http://deramp.com/downloads/polymorphic/poly-8813/software/Disk Image Transfer/

Dwight
 
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You can easily make your own boot disks even on a “cold” machine. See “Disk Image Transfer” and “Disk “Images” here:

http://deramp.com/downloads/polymorphic/poly-8813/software/

I’d write the EXEC961.PM disk image as your first boot disk (assuming you have the 5.25” single density drives).

I can write you a disk or two if you get stuck, but in general, you’re better off writing your own boot disk since the drive doesn’t have to be properly aligned in order to read a disk that the same drive wrote. Though obviously, you’ll eventually want to align your drives anyway so you can swap disks between your drives without errors.

Mike
 
You beat me to it Mike!!

If the OP doesn't have a serial adapter, one can be made with a minimum of effort. There is little to them. I recommend using a Maxim chip. It only requires wires and connectors, on a small proto board.
The processor already has a USART. You just need to connect up the RS232 level shifter chip.
Have you checked to see if you have a working monitor and some RAM?
Dwight
 
I was just thinking. If one has one of those USB to 5v serial boards ( under $5 on ebay ), you can most likely use that wired in directly without the RS232 level shifters. I've not tried it but don't see any reason it wouldn't work.
Dwight
 
I do not have a keyboard either. Is there any way to use it without a poly keyboard (serial, adapter, etc.)?
 
Normally, you could enter the patch to the serial in place of the keyboard but that would typically be done by the monitor program, through the keyboard. Catch22!
There is no simple way to avoid using a parallel keyboard. How about a video monitor, do you have a video monitor?
Do you have a PC with a real printer port? A printer port could be used as a keyboard. You'd need some cleverness to create the busy handshake, like a printer would( a 555 chip or 74LS123 ).
Another way is to use a PS/2 keyboard to parallel converter. This could easily be done with something like an arduino. They have libraries to read a PS/2 keyboard.
I've got such code mostly working on a BluePill board but I don't use the adruino EDI. I'm not sure my code would be compatible with the arduino loader. I don't know where the arduino puts their loader, in memory. It might be right where I put my code. They need the loader to have a device independent loader for their interface. I just load code directly, without a client loader.
It only requires the cable, some wire, some resistors, a connector for the PS/2 keyboard and the BluePill. The BluePill can be had for under $3 from ebay.
You could just use an arduino with its serial to your host pc and have a parallel out. You need to select the proper arduino board, though. Not all the boards have 5V tolerant I/O. Some require level shifters. That is why I like the BluePill. Even though it is a 3.3V processor, it has 5V tolerant pins and only requires pullup resistors.
You might have to modify the PS/2 library, if using the arduino interface, as I don't know if anyone has patched it for the BluePill?? Other Arduino boards can be used.
So, there are options. There are a lot of small ARM processors available to work with the arduino setup.
If you want to use my code, I can complete it. It only needs a patch to its cold boot routine to be standalone. Right now it boots to the interactive serial mode. It should be a minor patch to boot to the PS/2 keyboard instead. I'd love a guinea pig to try it out on.
Otherwise, you need to find a parallel keyboard some place. They show up on ebay but are often expensive.
Dwight
 
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I found a PS/2 to Parallel adapter on eBay for about $2. Is the Polymorphic keyboard pinout the same as a printer port?
 
CPE1704TKS said:
I found a PS/2 to Parallel adapter on eBay for about $2. Is the Polymorphic keyboard pinout the same as a printer port?
Click to expand...

No, it is not a printer port. What the Poly calls a printer port is a serial port, not a parallel port. There are variations on the keyboard interfaces. Some are wired straight through from the video board. Some have a +5V regulator on them. Also, you may need to make changes on your video card jumpers. Many of the System88's fed +8V to the keyboard instead of +5V. There is a jumper location for that. I'm sure your parallel adapter is expecting 5V and will smoke both your adapter and keyboard if connected to the +8V line. Please verify data paths and voltages. There is also a provision for a negative rail but you can ignore that as I don't think you'll be using that. There is a jumper for strobe polarity. You adapter may not have an issue with that, if the data is there both before and after the strobe for some time. I have one keyboard that only has the data on one edge of the strobe. The video board closed the clock on the latch and simultaneously generates an interrupt to the processor, based on the edge of the strobe.

Please see:
http://deramp.com/downloads/polymorphic/poly-8813/hardware/Video_Terminal_Interface_1977.pdf
if you have any questions, let me know.

I would use an ohm meter to trace out the power, strobe and data pins from the video board ( by schematic ) to the adapter before applying power.
Could you send me a pointer to the adapter you bought?
Dwight
 
CPE1704TKS said:
I found a PS/2 to Parallel adapter on eBay for about $2. Is the Polymorphic keyboard pinout the same as a printer port?
Click to expand...

I find it difficult to believe that a $2 adapter from ebay would convert PS/2 keyboard serial to parallel keyboard signals.
Please post the ebay reference.
Dwight
 
I just realized that it provided the parallel bits, but not the strobe signal. The item is a ps2 adapter for Arduino. Is there any way to produce the strobe signal easily?
 
CPE1704TKS said:
I just realized that it provided the parallel bits, but not the strobe signal. The item is a ps2 adapter for Arduino. Is there any way to produce the strobe signal easily?
Click to expand...

I see what you are talking about. I don't know what good it would be without a strobe? If we are looking at the same ones, it also does IIC and something other serial, I can't figure. It might be more useful to use a Arduino with the board to make the parallel and strobe from the IIC data But then it might make more sense to read the PS2 keyboard directly, if your going to go to that trouble.
You could put an 8 input NAND gate on the parallel data but that would cause a little issue with the Polymorphic word processing code. You see, it uses a ^@. This would miss having a strobe because it is all zero on the data lines.
I'd gotten a Franklin keyboard a while back. The ^@ wasn't decoded but luckily, the code was in a EPROM. I dumped the EPROM. located the translation table and added the ^@ of 0H. I was then happy. I use that keyboard with my System 88 machine.
Dwight
 
It may still have a strobe function. You have to realize these are borrowed code from github some place and then cranked out by the hundreds. The people that make them didn't write the code and don't have any idea how they actually work.
The only reason these exist is because people are to lazy to write the needed code for the Arduino that works correctly. At the Maker Faire, I was talking to the person that claimed to be the person that writes the libraries for the Teensy. I'd asked if he was throttling the keyboard. ( you have to be paying attention to the keyboard, even if the processor is doing something else at the same time, unless you throttle the keyboard ). Anyway it is like telling the key board that you are busy right now so be quiet. He had no idea what I was taking about. He also didn't know about resigning codes to keys either.
ThePS/2 keyboards are quite powerful if you know what you are doing. I suspect he just took some other Arduino library and modified it for the Teensy's I/O and such. Their libraries usually lack depth.
Dwight
 
CPE1704TKS said:
What exactly does the ^@ null character do on the Polymorphic, and why can it not be omitted?
Click to expand...

It is only used in the word processor code. It has been a long time since I dealt with it and to be honest I can't recall. It was something that would be a common action. I recall coming across it and thinking how silly to require something from the keyboard that some keyboard might not support. It is all 0 bits. Sometimes called the null character. I suppose I could look at the manual on Mike's site and find what I was talking about. I just thought it was strange that the Apple system didn't seem to need what was otherwise a part of the ascii tables. If you look at the table, you have ^B, ^A and then ^@.
Dwight
 
Ok, I found it. You made me look it up. It was what is called a Pad character. When sending a CR to a teletype, or other printer that has a platen ( my first printer that was like a typewriter ) and requires a delay for the platen to return, you'd pad the printing with null characters as these were non-printing. I recall now that I had to do this for my printer. I didn't recall what it was but now I remember.
Most printers now days have a busy signal. In those early days, printing was done with a simple serial machine that didn't have any hand shake method. No one was likely to have a Centronix type parallel printer.
Dwight
 
On your converter board. They don't mention anything about the strobe but, they did mention that the LED flashes. It is in Chinglish, so it is a little had to understand. Anyway, since they'd used up the I/O pins at the edge of the board, it is quite likely that the LED is connected to what was originally the strobe. It is not clear if it flashes once per key or if it blinks rapidly. It is tied to the key stroke though. Worst comes to worst, you might add a one shot to the LED and get a strobe from it. My guess is that it is the strobe!
Dwight
.
 
Dwight Elvey said:
Ok, I found it. You made me look it up. It was what is called a Pad character. When sending a CR to a teletype, or other printer that has a platen ( my first printer that was like a typewriter ) and requires a delay for the platen to return, you'd pad the printing with null characters as these were non-printing. I recall now that I had to do this for my printer. I didn't recall what it was but now I remember.
Most printers now days have a busy signal. In those early days, printing was done with a simple serial machine that didn't have any hand shake method. No one was likely to have a Centronix type parallel printer.
Dwight
Click to expand...

The convention for Teletypes was CR-LF-RO-RO (RO=127=rubout). Nulls (00) were returned when the tape reader was reading blank leader. Rubout is all holes punched--so called, because one could correct a erroneous character when punching tape by backspacing and hitting rubout, then continuing with input.

How many people remember manually preparing paper tape for transmission? Did this go out of style when the last Telex machine was scrapped?
 
Chuck(G) said:
The convention for Teletypes was CR-LF-RO-RO (RO=127=rubout). Nulls (00) were returned when the tape reader was reading blank leader. Rubout is all holes punched--so called, because one could correct a erroneous character when punching tape by backspacing and hitting rubout, then continuing with input.

How many people remember manually preparing paper tape for transmission? Did this go out of style when the last Telex machine was scrapped?
Click to expand...

I recall that my printer would print a big block on RO. I had to do a BS and then a RO. I can see why on a teletype you'd want to do it differently. The Poly WordMaster document mentions both characters. I suppose it may be different for different setups. In the past ( while in the service ) I'd print a number of NULLs and then one RO to have a nice tear point. Since My purpose was to test the operation after cleaning and oiling, I didn't have any issues with typing the wrong thing. I could always type what I liked.
Dwight
 
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