Kaypro, Osborne & Compact Portables Talk / Paper Tcf

[GADFRAN]

KAYPRO, OSBORNE & COMPACT PORTABLES TALK / PAPER TCF

If you are interested in these portable, personal computers [PPC’s] of the 1980’s, I am giving an hour talk at the 2008 Trenton Computer Festival [TCF] on Saturday 04/26/2008 at 3:40 to 4:35 pm in Room 221 of the Brower Student Center, The College of New Jersey, Ewing, NJ.

The full paper of over 100 pages with numerous references will be available on the TCF CD Digest of the Proceedings of this event.

The web site is www.tcf-nj.org for much more information on this fantastic long running festival! I must say, they certainly have a very interesting and diverse program, as they do every year. If you know of them, then enough said. If you do not, it is certainly something to put on your list of very worthwhile Spring computer activities.

The abstract is posted on the web site. Basically, why did Osborne & Kaypro not make it and why did Compaq become so dramatically successful? I found some interesting data, but am open to finding much more, if it exists.

Some lessons learned from this era may help in trying to personally manage computers in our lives today.

Note – I will correct some errors in the posted web site abstract. They are my fault. As far as I know, Osborne did not work for Kaypro, but I did find some information on a “deal” he was working on with them after the Osborne Company filed for bankruptcy. Sorry for my errors and hope they do not cause any inconvenience and further confusion.

I am also setting up a very simple “information transfer” type website – www.kayprosts.org – to coordinate my interest in vintage computers, especially of this 1980 era, along with my general decades of Science, Technology & Society [STS] research on many diverse topics. The domain name is established and hopefully the site will be up and running in the next month or two. The web site developer has all the information – about 100 MB of mostly text, spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations – few pictures and other more memory intensive and fancy features.

I am putting off offering on eBay my 6 working Kaypro “8” computers [modified from Kaypro II & 4’s] for a few months due to the recent many serious eBay issues that have developed. Information was previously posted under GADFRAN on this web site. In addition, I may be using them for some of my presentations in “hands-on” demonstrations of such Kaypros for some interested organizations. But they will go eventually. They have too – we must downsize a lot of our accumulated “stuff” in our retirement years.

I have begun boxing up the numerous “spare parts” in logical groups that will go with each of them as a “package,” so that they can be maintained by their new owners. An individual packing slip of these items will be included with each Kaypro when they are eventually offered on eBay.

Thanks for your time and interest!

 

[Sharkonwheels]

I dunno....still haven't found any reference to any "Kaypro 8".
All I can find is 3-4 people who have added DS/QD drives to something older, swap out the monitor/boot rom, and christen it a "Kaypro 8."

Guess my Kaypro 10's with 42MB HD and Kaypro-88 are now "Kaypro 42+88"

I seem to recall emailing Andy a few months back and asking him, and if I could've seen the look on his face, it probably woulda' been a blank stare...


T

 

[tezza]

Thanks for the link. I've a passion for computer history and someday I hope to give talks of this nature to local people who might be interested.

Tez

 

[GADFRAN]

My Reply - To "t" And Tez

My Reply - To "t" And Tez

Thanks to both of you for your replys.

"T" - the Kaypro "8"s were Microcornucopia modifcations of Kaypro II's to 4's and then to "8" 's - the "8" came from "8" times the disk drive capacity of the drives on the Kaypro 4's. We also did what you suggested swapping out some chips and doing some reqiring of the mainboard. I have the directions and schematics if anyone is interested. Also got speed boost of 2.5 to 5 MHz - big "whoop" in today's computers, but very significant then.

Your comments show me just how isolated these systems were from the main Kaypros. Several other companies provided similar chips & info for their upgrades / mods for Kaypro "8" 's. So there was a significant market, but obviously nothing compared to what you are talking about.

My paper goes into a lot of this in detail if anyone is interested.

If you are talking of Andy Kay, he would not know, since they were popular modifications by Microcornucopia and not Kaypro, especially after Kaypro was no longer in business. They provided a big boost in power for us to keep our old Kaypros running longer, before eventually having to go to IBM compatible of course.

It was fun doing the upgrades /mods and getting them to actually run dependably.

You just have to be "into it" to know this. You are more into the 1984 versions of the Kaypros as we corresponded in the past.n I am more into the 1983 versions.

The KPlus upgrades for the 1984 models are in some ways similar to Microcornucopia's.

How is Andy doing? His web site for Kay Computers is up, but no pictures, email answers and phone disconnected. Did he finally pack it in? He is in his late 80's isn't he?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Tez - thanks for your web site. I will check it out. Too bad you are in New Zealand. If you get to USA, let me know. Maybe I can help in getting you to do some talks. You certainly can do some "hardcopy" papers and publish them. Books out on TRS-80 and Commodore help to publicize what really went on in those eras. You certainly have a big list for similar books.

All the best to both of you and stay in touch when necessary and convenient.

Frank

 

[Sharkonwheels]

So then it was just a modded K, then.
Coulda' done the same using Advents products, as well. They had a personality board, which i would LOVE to find. I think someone on comp.os.cpm was talking about cloning.

I personally would not go to that much trouble with an '83 model, but it sounds like you did the changes years ago. Nowadays, I'm working on modding the cripes out of a 4/84. I currently have it with the (2) DS/DD, the Co-Power-88 (256kb) in it - would love to find the 1MBmodel, and would also like to get the GIDE going on it, as well as finding either another RAMDisk, or adding the 256kb mod to it, but I have read things hinting that the 256kb mod on '84 models never worked correctly.

Which MicroC ROM are you using? Pro Pro-884? Can you dump it on a PROM burner for us? Or if you don;t have the equipment, can you loan it to me for a dump?

T

 

[GADFRAN]

Sharkonwheels - my delayed reply

Sharkonwheels - my delayed reply

Sharkonwheels,

it will not let me send a private message to you again - so I will just try sending a reply to the thread

1] Thanks for the response! I am trying a private message instead of cluttering up the site with our “chatter.” But I have been having some difficulty with the site, so please be patient. You can see my past posts on all of these difficulties. Even Erik does not know why.

2] I am now back from the 33rd Trenton Computer Fest in NJ this past weekend and all went well, including my talk. It is a fantastic event – more if you are interested – www.tcf-nj.org. There was even a Kaypro for sale in the Flea Market section I was told!

3] When I got back there was a family emergency, which also delayed me responding.

4] I will offer the following, if you are interested. If not – the circular file [trash bin] is perfectly acceptable – mine gets filled fast! I think we are both “on the same wavelength” – no nonsense – just the basics! I do not respond much on vintage-computer, but I visit it often. I am a quiet type of guy.

5] You are interested in 1 MB RAM for your 1984 Kaypros. I have such an external RAM from Microsphere for my 1983 Kaypros and it worked just fine. Uses printer port on Kaypro and has 2 printer ports on a 6” x 4” x 1” black box – one input and one output. Software may be an issue since it was for 1983’s and not your 1984’s, but since you are so knowledgeable, maybe you can get it to work. Originally with 1 MB RAM more than $500 – hard to believe today – but then we had only 64K RAM, as you know!!!

6] Also, you mentioned you have the ability to duplicate chips. The critical ones are U43 & U47, at least on the 1983 Kaypros, as you probably know. They are proprietary – whether upgraded versions or the original chips. Without them, you are “dead in the water” as far as I am aware. But I have Pro-8 version 3 for the 1983's but you need Pro-884 for 1984's. But see below - you may want to get into the 1983's

7] Found good old JDR Microelectronics in CA still sells just about all the other chips on these 1983 Kaypros and only for $0.25 or $1 each!

8] So you could be a valuable service for such people who need these 2 proprietary chips. I presume you have worked out the copyright, patent, trademark, etc. stuff, if they are still issues with such old equipment. That is another reason I do not want to get involved. It just takes too much time to research all that stuff for me.

9] So I would suggest we start with the 2 standard chips – U43 and U47 – I can send them, you can duplicate them and send them back. If the originals and your duplicates still work, then I can send you the Microcornucopia chips and I think I also have Microsphere and some other versions by other companies for the same type of upgrades. I will have to check. You can duplicate them and keep them, but send the originals back so I can still sell my systems on eBay as upgraded / modified
Kaypro “8” ‘s.

10] A] We will also be testing the Postal System and their security and delivery systems, so we do not have these chips destroyed by them. My understanding is that they are using radiation a lot that may not affect chips today, but who knows about chips from 20 – 30 years ago? Probably ok, but why risk it.

B] In the wine industry that I do some consulting for, they have to send their original wine labels in for approval. Some of the fancy ones were damaged by the radiation. So now they do not have to send original labels.

11] From what I see about Kaypros and vintage computers, a lot of my “special stuff” will not be reasonable for eBay. Few are sophisticated and committed enough to make good use of it, even if they would pay a reasonable amount for it.

12] Obviously, the 6 working Kaypro “8” ‘s + spare parts, software, etc. – sure – they may sell on eBay.

13] The rest – lets communicate. I will do an inventory as soon as I can, but I have some other projects I am involved in. You can see what you might be interested in. Also , check my posts as GADFRAN on www.vintage-computer.org

14] I am not into this to make a lot of money. Any funds I would get would go to my research work on vintage computers and science, technology & society [STS] research that I have been doing for many decades. Also to support my new web site – www.kayprosts.org. It is still under construction, but they got it up for the TCF – just a list of topics and a way to communicate with me. More than 100 MB of info to come yet and more as others let me know what they are interested in. Obviously, vintage computer and you will be noted on it, along with other useful Kaypro info I have found, besides my science, technology & society [“STS”] research. Any info you would like to contribute to the web site, to make your work easier, would be most welcome.

15] A] So bottom line – whatever you would think is fair and want to pay + shipping & packaging - would be fine. At least it would get a good home and someone who could use it and appreciate it – rather than the dumpster / landfill – but such is life!

B] You seem to be the type to be “trusted” with a reputation on the web to be protected. I am the same way. But, having been thru about 10 years of lawsuits over safety, hazardous waste & environmental illegal activity by a former employer – I did not want to go to prison for them - settled out of court after a week of our testimony and before theirs began – my attorney was a local assistant district attorney –

- all is offered “as is” and in “good faith”

- no liability in any way or in any form for me

- almost all did work at the time, but have not checked all this stuff in past 10 years – except the 6 Kaypro “8” ‘s – they do work fine

- I can check my log books if issues would develop – but just as we have “aged” – all this computer stuff has also – did anyone think it would last this long? Certainly many did not, since we had “Y2K a few years ago – what a mess at one company I worked for – many stories to tell.

16] I will use our small local Palm Business Center to do the shipping [and also for eBay – as noted in some of my posts]. They seem reasonable and honest – in our small rural area – if you are not – nobody will bother with you – may not last much longer, since it is getting so built up around here.

17] Let me know if any issues develop and I will have a talk with them.

18] You are right on as usual with so many of your posts, about the exorbitant shipping, packaging, etc. charges nonsense some try to put over on you [some recent posts by you I came across]. Somebody always has to be around to screw up a good thing! Such is humanity. I am also delaying putting my Kaypros on eBay until things settle down – what a mess they created! Again, always someone to mess good things up for the rest of us.

19] But maybe you do not want to get into the 1983 Kaypros?

20] However, here is my situation. I am interested in doing my research and publishing it, and not getting involved with people like you are on the “nitty gritty” of getting these systems to work. I tell the people who contact me to go to you, if you do not mind [e.g., Chris Fenton an electrical engineer from NYC ??? – he is still working at it I see on his 1984 Kaypro 2 – thanks for helping him and so many others].

21] Please don’t hold it against me, but I am now an officially retired Ph.D. chemist [“piled high and deep”] – supposedly at one time I had some very specialized expertise in a very specialized area of chemistry – but I think I forgot most of it by now – that is all that means! It doesn’t help to pay the bills anymore than anyone else, but some people think it is special, not really, just another small area of expertise, usually not very useful in everyday life. I still put my pants on one leg at a time like most everyone else.

22] A] So you see where I am coming from. I want to do my research and not get involved with helping people to get their systems running, other than providing information thru my web site.

B] Do you want to be the “1983 Kaypro Guy” besides being the “1984 Kaypro Guy?” Think about it! There is a need for all these people getting into Kaypros, especially some on eBay, with systems that may have just been found by someone in the junk pile and they want to make a few bucks on them – no disks, they say they work – yea, screen shows some green letters, but what else?

23] In our retirement years, while we still can physically, we just have to get rid of a lot of the “stuff” we have accumulated over 35 + years of marriage – third dumpster coming in next few months – why did we ever accumulate so much?

24] Also, if you do decide to be “THE Kaypro Guy – 1983 & 1984” – don’t forget about being “mirrored” as some say – you need some “backups” in case, as we use to say in industry you get hit by “the beer truck” someday! You know what has happened in a number of areas in vintage computers [e.g., Don Maislin ??? - was it who was a source for boot disks for most Kaypro systems – he died??? – no one to back him up???].

I tend to write longer emails & correspondence, but fewer of them, since I found a long time ago in industry you can create a lot more work for yourself if you do not communicate well. It can burn up a lot of time also going back and forth trying to clarify things.

So all the best!

Let me know what you think and we will go from there. No rush.

Frank

P.S.

If you are interested, I also have Kaypro technical & dealer manuals, but newer technical manuals are provided by bitsavers and others I see.

Also have some books on repairing computers and Kaypros. Will have to do my inventory and get back to you, if you are interested, not so much for you, but to sell to others for whatever you could get for them. Most on Amazon are not worth much I saw, but may be useful for the hobbyist. That is how I learned to do all the upgrades, modifications, repair, maintenance, etc. Just kept at it until things finally worked. I am a ”hands-on” type lab / plant chemist [e.g., hard hat, nomex, rugged safety shoes, etc. – definitely not a “desk jockey” type] and my Dad taught me a lot about fixing things. It was fun, but life moves on. Still do some basic “plug & play” with spare parts for our current computers to keep them working, when necessary.

Also lots of free software from KUG and others that was available for the Kaypros.

I also started a local Kaypro Users Group [KUG] and quickly had over 50 members. Kaypro was very generous with us for running such KUGs, so we got a lot of free stuff.

 

[Druid6900]

10[a] Re: radiation; Photography stores used to sell a lead foil made by Kodak to protect film from exposure fogging due to x-ray scanning at airports and such.

They still might produce it and it should be of sufficient thickness to protect PROMs from post office erasure.

 

[Sharkonwheels]

Frank,

Nice response - we don;t mind long responses here, as long as they have substance.

A whole page of QWERTYUIOP would obviously be frowned upon

As the the PROM/EPROM issue, I haven't had any issues yet, and have mailed out at least a dozen TurboROMs so far. I also put laser-printer labels on all of them, with a description on it.

I have the ability to duplicate, but if you are talking about the second being a Character generator ROM, that would be a different story. I would have to check if 1) I can read it 2) if there is a source for blank units.

I have no problem trying!

I am going to help another chap get his website running with Kaypro stuff, at kaypro.net, and am also going to bring up one of my own, so the information will be out there. I will also try to figure out a way to make sure web.archive.org sucks my site down. The biggest trick, is to not nest too many directories deep, so WayBack machine can get it all.

I am expanding what I support, to include Osborne 1's and Executives, the entire '84 Kaypro line, and some '83 support (media), Morrow MicroDecisions (as I have some), Telcon Zorbas, and Otrona Attache (soon as i can get mine running), as well as the Altos ACS-8000 and Altos Series 5.

I try to support what I own, so that I can verify that what I provide actually works!

T