unable to post to bios with ATi Radeon 7000 PCI card on PM 8600 motherboard

[J. Radon]

I wanted to try and get a 3d graphics accelerator card for my win98 machine, as well as to see if I could get DVI video output.
I got an ATi Radeon 7000 PCI card on ebay (specific model is R7000PCI revision 1.1 as listed on the mask, or R7000PCI-B3 as listed on the info sticker on the back).
My motherboard is an Amptron PM-8600-A (revision 2.5), and is using Award bios v4.51pg.

Upon installing card, computer is unable to post to bios.

This is the trouble shooting I've tried so far:
-remove any unnecessary cards so that it's just video, ram, and power on the motherboard
-verify that monitor and VGA cable are working correctly
-test with both just the radeon card installed and with both the radeon card and my primary 2d VGA card (Trident TGUI9680-1) as it was my impression that with systems of this era you still need a 2d video card to run a 3d video card, but that the radeon might also have 2d graphics (???)

-on the dual card setup I tried swapping between which cards vga port I used, but it made no difference
​

Upon getting the card I cleaned it, visually inspected the caps, and replaced the thermal paste; visually the card looks okay, but obviously that still leaves a lot unknown.
Unfortunately I don't have a second board to test with to verify that the card works at all.

My system posts to bios just fine when I revert to my trident card, but when I install the radeon card, either paired or solo, it won't post to bios.
The post code beeps are inconsistent, sometimes it throws out a 1 long, 2 short beep pattern (video error), or it doesn't beep at all (no error code, but also no single beep confirmation that the self test passed).

Is my bios just too old or incompatible with the radeon card? (I know it has win98 drivers, but this is a weird board to be fair.)
Is there a way to verify that the card isn't simply dead, like maybe some test pads I can try to test with a multi meter when it's plugged in?

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Agent Orange]

Try different slots but I might start suspecting the card itself. You need to find another board somewhere to test with

 

[J. Radon]

Try different slots but I might start suspecting the card itself. You need to find another board somewhere to test with

Forgot to mention I had already tried all 4 pci slots, and that was also a no go. I'd love to test with a second board, but the only other vintage computer I have is an Atari 800 xl. I don't have anything with PCI slots, just a few boards with PCI-e.

I could try and look into buying a better socket 7 mother board (and probably should eventually) for my system, but I'd likely have to order that online as well, and by then It'd probably be too late to return this card if it turns out it's just D.O.A. (it claimed to be tested working on the sellers page).

 

[J. Radon]

Can anyone confirm at least if this card needs to be paired with a 2d card or not?

Or if there's a way to test if the card is alive even without it posting to bios, like taking a reference voltage somewhere on the board?

 

[GiGaBiTe]

The Radeon 7000 doesn't need a companion video card, it's an all in one 2D/3D solution.

As for why it doesn't work, I can think of two besides the card being completely dead.

1) The PCI edge connector is oxidized on the card, and is preventing proper operation. I would recommend hosing it down with Deoxit Gold G5, CRC Precision Lubricant or another electrical contact cleaner that is non-corrosive. If none of these are easily available, a last choice option would be to use a pencil eraser and lightly scrub the PCI edge connector on the card and wipe off the residue with isopropyl alcohol.

2) The BIOS on the card is not compatible with the CPU you're using. Many PCI video cards from the late 90s and beyond have firmware compiled against later CPUs, like the Pentium 2/3, AMD K6-2 / K7, etc. which prevents them from working on older machines due to the host CPU not having the correct instruction set available. It's a similar issue to why you can't plug a x86 PCI video card into an Apple PowerPC machine, because the two CPUs are not at all compatible and need separate BIOS images.

BIOS incompatibility is more often a problem on the 486, but I have come across a few PCI cards that also won't work on Pentium era machines for the same reason, usually Nvidia video cards. I have one Geforce 4 MX 4000 that won't work on 486 or Pentium computers, the earliest machine it will work on is an AMD K6/2 or a Pentium III.

You didn't say which CPU you were using in your motherboard, but if you're using a Cyrix or an AMD k5, you might want to try a Pentium MMX or an AMD K6 and see if it makes a difference. The Cyrix 6x86 is known to have lots of trouble with Pentium era code due to missing instructions. Likewise, the AMD k5 has similar issues.

 

[J. Radon]

The Radeon 7000 doesn't need a companion video card, it's an all in one 2D/3D solution.

As for why it doesn't work, I can think of two besides the card being completely dead.

1) The PCI edge connector is oxidized on the card, and is preventing proper operation. I would recommend hosing it down with Deoxit Gold G5, CRC Precision Lubricant or another electrical contact cleaner that is non-corrosive. If none of these are easily available, a last choice option would be to use a pencil eraser and lightly scrub the PCI edge connector on the card and wipe off the residue with isopropyl alcohol.

2) The BIOS on the card is not compatible with the CPU you're using. Many PCI video cards from the late 90s and beyond have firmware compiled against later CPUs, like the Pentium 2/3, AMD K6-2 / K7, etc. which prevents them from working on older machines due to the host CPU not having the correct instruction set available. It's a similar issue to why you can't plug a x86 PCI video card into an Apple PowerPC machine, because the two CPUs are not at all compatible and need separate BIOS images.

BIOS incompatibility is more often a problem on the 486, but I have come across a few PCI cards that also won't work on Pentium era machines for the same reason, usually Nvidia video cards. I have one Geforce 4 MX 4000 that won't work on 486 or Pentium computers, the earliest machine it will work on is an AMD K6/2 or a Pentium III.

You didn't say which CPU you were using in your motherboard, but if you're using a Cyrix or an AMD k5, you might want to try a Pentium MMX or an AMD K6 and see if it makes a difference. The Cyrix 6x86 is known to have lots of trouble with Pentium era code due to missing instructions. Likewise, the AMD k5 has similar issues.

That's really good to know! Thank you.
It's an AMD k5, so maybe that is the problem. I do eventually want to get a better motherboard and a k6 or better, but for now most of the components are either from when I inherited the system, or from systems i've bought and disassembled from thrift stores.

I'll have to do some more digging on ebay or something once I've got some more cash set aside for this project.

Do you know if perhaps a bios setting could be stopping the bios from recognizing the card? That thought popped into my head earlier and I've gone into the settings, but I don't know what i'd change. I just know there's 3 sections that seem like it might be relevant: "standard cmos setup", "bios features setup", and "pnp/pci configuration"

 

[GiGaBiTe]

Do you know if perhaps a bios setting could be stopping the bios from recognizing the card? That thought popped into my head earlier and I've gone into the settings, but I don't know what i'd change. I just know there's 3 sections that seem like it might be relevant: "standard cmos setup", "bios features setup", and "pnp/pci configuration"

If your Trident video card is working, there is no reason why the Radeon 7000 should also work, besides the issues outlined above.

The only setting that would be of any relevance in the BIOS if it were available, is which slot type to check first for video devices. The PM-8600 only has ISA and PCI slots, so I'm not sure it has this option. Later motherboards with AGP slots or integrated video started to have this option to select the primary video chip to be used, but this generally would not cause a no-POST black screen if set incorrectly.

 

[Chuck(G)]

My PM8600s all used PCI video cards (why wouldn't they?) with no issues. Of course, this was all time-appropriate with cards with perhaps a maximum of 4MB of video RAM. I think the last card I used was a Diamond Viper Pro (the one with the Weitek P9100). Later cards may be problematic.

 

[J. Radon]

My PM8600s all used PCI video cards (why wouldn't they?) with no issues. Of course, this was all time-appropriate with cards with perhaps a maximum of 4MB of video RAM. I think the last card I used was a Diamond Viper Pro (the one with the Weitek P9100). Later cards may be problematic.

Oh wow, 4mb is a lot different from 64 mb. It looks like my problem card was first released in February 2001, my current socket 7 processor, the amd k5, was released in March 1996. If the problem is, as suggested by GiGaBiTe, that the card relies on firmware instructions found on later CPUs; it sounds like an amd k6-2 (may 1998)or the amd k6-III (Feb 1999) might be my best bet as some of the latest socket 7 CPUs, right?

Do you know how compatible those CPUs are with these PM8600 boards? I know they have voltage selector pins for the CPU that would need to be properly jumpered if they are compatible (I don't see why they wouldn't be since they are socket 7 CPUs).

I hope I'm not pushing this hardware too hard, my intention isn't really to go too overboard with this systems specs, I just wanna see if I can get DVI output and some 3d graphics support, and this happened to be what seemed like a good budget choice for picking up a PCI 3d accelerator card on eBay. I know the ATi Radeon 7000 has win98 driver support, but I also know software, firmware, and hardware compatibility are completely different things, so I'm just trying to see what I can get working.

In the end, it seems like a motherboard and processor upgrade are probably inevitable, but I'm also pretty stubborn about not upgrading the OS past win98SE. I was born in 98', so I'm more familiar with winXP, being that it was my first operating system, but I really like the feeling, aesthetic, and environment of win98 and want to have a nice system for it with support for a wide library of games.

Edit: I guess the eight and close parentheses above turned into a sunglasses smiley, but I don't know how to undo it.

 

[jafir]

Someone may have installed Mac firmware on the card at some point to put it in a G4. I remember doing that once or twice, but I could still boot with the Mac card and an old S3 Trio card so that I could see what I was doing to flash it back to PC firmware. Also the card I was using might not have been exactly a Radeon 7000, but it was something along the lines of 7000, 8000, 9000… before the HD series came out. It’s been years so I don’t remember exactly. That’s another computer I wish I hadn’t given away.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

if the problem is, as suggested by GiGaBiTe, that the card relies on firmware instructions found on later CPUs; it sounds like an amd k6-2 (may 1998)or the amd k6-III (Feb 1999) might be my best bet as some of the latest socket 7 CPUs, right?

Do you know how compatible those CPUs are with these PM8600 boards? I know they have voltage selector pins for the CPU that would need to be properly jumpered if they are compatible (I don't see why they wouldn't be since they are socket 7 CPUs).

The K6/2 and K6/3 are Super Socket 7 CPUs, not normal Socket 7. The Amptron PM8600 is only a Socket 7 board, and the fastest CPUs it officially supports is a 233 MHz AMD K6 or a Pentium MMX. The AMD K6 would probably be a bit faster due to the 75 MHz bus.

https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/A/AMPTRON-INTERNATIONAL-INC-Pentium-PM-8600.html

To go any higher, you'd need one of those now rare and expensive CPU interposer upgrades. They're not worth it though because of hobbling a 100 MHz FSB CPU to a 66 MHz bus, which really cripples performance. The system would be marginally faster, but not as fast as the CPU otherwise would be on a proper motherboard. I had such an upgrade back in the late 90s (Evergreen Spectra 400) and it left a lot to be desired. It wasn't until years later that I realized how crippled the AMD K6/2 400 was when I got an FIC PA-2013 that was a native Super 7 board, and it ran a hell of a lot faster.

I hope I'm not pushing this hardware too hard, my intention isn't really to go too overboard with this systems specs, I just wanna see if I can get DVI output and some 3d graphics support, and this happened to be what seemed like a good budget choice for picking up a PCI 3d accelerator card on eBay. I know the ATi Radeon 7000 has win98 driver support, but I also know software, firmware, and hardware compatibility are completely different things, so I'm just trying to see what I can get working.

Amptron wasn't known for their quality. They were a garbage tier motherboard manufacturer, down there with PC-Chips and Biostar. Their boards were known to be unstable and fail because of cutting too many corners. They were also known to use fake cache chips on their boards, making them even slower.

 

[Chuck(G)]

The PM8600 will support a K6 CPU, but I wonder if your card's incompatibility may be due to the BIOS lacking certain features. I don't know for certain.

 

[J. Radon]

The K6/2 and K6/3 are Super Socket 7 CPUs, not normal Socket 7. The Amptron PM8600 is only a Socket 7 board, and the fastest CPUs it officially supports is a 233 MHz AMD K6 or a Pentium MMX. The AMD K6 would probably be a bit faster due to the 75 MHz bus.

https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/A/AMPTRON-INTERNATIONAL-INC-Pentium-PM-8600.html

To go any higher, you'd need one of those now rare and expensive CPU interposer upgrades. They're not worth it though because of hobbling a 100 MHz FSB CPU to a 66 MHz bus, which really cripples performance. The system would be marginally faster, but not as fast as the CPU otherwise would be on a proper motherboard. I had such an upgrade back in the late 90s (Evergreen Spectra 400) and it left a lot to be desired. It wasn't until years later that I realized how crippled the AMD K6/2 400 was when I got an FIC PA-2013 that was a native Super 7 board, and it ran a hell of a lot faster.



Amptron wasn't known for their quality. They were a garbage tier motherboard manufacturer, down there with PC-Chips and Biostar. Their boards were known to be unstable and fail because of cutting too many corners. They were also known to use fake cache chips on their boards, making them even slower.

Funny you mention amptron and pc chips both being bad, because they're the same company. Amptron is just a rebranded name pc chips used because their reputation was so bad.

And I thought only the amd k6 2/3 + ones were super socket.
What's the difference in the plus models then?

 

[J. Radon]

The PM8600 will support a K6 CPU, but I wonder if your card's incompatibility may be due to the BIOS lacking certain features. I don't know for certain.

Sounds like it's really time for a motherboard upgrade then.
I haven't had many problems with 64 mb of ram on Simms, a k5, and my current VGA card on win98, but people really seem to despise amptron boards.

What would be a good board if I was looking to upgrade to an AMD k6-2 (the AMD k6-3 seems to be rare or something, it looks like it goes for a lot on ebay compared to the k6-2), or perhaps could you give me another recommendation for a good cpu/motherboard combo for a good win98se build?

 

[Eudimorphodon]

Someone may have installed Mac firmware on the card at some point to put it in a G4.

This is a genuine possibility. Radeon 7000s are one of the newest low-end cards that work with Mac OS 9 so Mac firmware conversions are not rare. (For that matter original Mac editions might not be obviously labeled as such; Apple stuck a really generic white box board into Xserves that's remarkably common on eBay and whatnot.)

 

[GiGaBiTe]

And I thought only the amd k6 2/3 + ones were super socket.
What's the difference in the plus models then?

No. Anything that requires a 90/95/100 MHz FSB is Super 7. The fastest official CPU spec for Socket 7 is 233 MHz, but not all motherboards supported this.

The AMD K6/2+ and K6/3+ were die shrinks of the K6/3 designed for use in mobile applications. The K6/2+ was confusingly a die shrink of the K6/3 with half the L2 cache (128k vs 256k), and not actually related to the K6/2. The K6/3 and its derivatives were never manufactured in quantity because AMD was more concerned with getting the K7 into production. Today they command a price premium to being rare, especially the higher clocked variants.

 

[J. Radon]

No. Anything that requires a 90/95/100 MHz FSB is Super 7. The fastest official CPU spec for Socket 7 is 233 MHz, but not all motherboards supported this.

The AMD K6/2+ and K6/3+ were die shrinks of the K6/3 designed for use in mobile applications. The K6/2+ was confusingly a die shrink of the K6/3 with half the L2 cache (128k vs 256k), and not actually related to the K6/2. The K6/3 and its derivatives were never manufactured in quantity because AMD was more concerned with getting the K7 into production. Today they command a price premium to being rare, especially the higher clocked variants.

That's super fascinating! Thank you for explaining this to me.

 

[J. Radon]

This is a genuine possibility. Radeon 7000s are one of the newest low-end cards that work with Mac OS 9 so Mac firmware conversions are not rare. (For that matter original Mac editions might not be obviously labeled as such; Apple stuck a really generic white box board into Xserves that's remarkably common on eBay and whatnot.)

So buying this on eBay is just kind of a lottery then?
How could I check the firmware? If it does have Mac firmware, would it only correctly post on a Mac board?

 

[Eudimorphodon]

So buying this on eBay is just kind of a lottery then?
How could I check the firmware? If it does have Mac firmware, would it only correctly post on a Mac board?

With a Mac firmware then, yes, it won’t work in a PC. If you had a second video card in the machine then you should be able to boot with a monitor connected to that card and run a flashing program, however. If the machine isn’t POST-ing at all with the ATI card installed alongside another PCI card then I’d suspect the card is physically damaged.

 

[J. Radon]

With a Mac firmware then, yes, it won’t work in a PC. If you had a second video card in the machine then you should be able to boot with a monitor connected to that card and run a flashing program, however. If the machine isn’t POST-ing at all with the ATI card installed alongside another PCI card then I’d suspect the card is physically damaged.

The latter is what I'm experiencing; when I have my trident card installed and connected to my monitor it boots up just fine, but adding in the Ati card causes it to fail post with beeps for video error, or to not post with silence.

Does that mean it's pretty likely it's damaged? Should I try and return it? The seller description says it was tested and working.