win 98 P.C build issues

[art84]

Hi everyone, I've picked up some bits for a win 98 retro gaming P.C build comprising of MSI KM2M Combo MS-6738 (socket A - 462), AMD ATHLON XP2000 1.67 GHZ, Matrox G400 MAX GPU and one stick of DDR 256mb 133mhz ram. (already have loads of other bits too, just need a case now and CD drive)

The system boots up and posts the bios startup screen however when I select F1 (to set standard defaults) or press DEL (to enter bios menu) both options give me a black screen and loss of video connection, power stays on etc. If I restart I don't get the inital boot screen again unless I clear CMOS and restart.

I HAVEN'T currently got any older monitor although that's what I'm going to try next as I only have access to a VGA- HDMI converter dongle, my L.G 1080p 240hz monitor and my 4K T.V... I know in the past I've had issues with running low res retro games consoles on these newer screens as they only worked on older T.V's (which I no longer have) so I'm leaning towards that theory at the moment. It's weird it shows the post screen but won't show the bios settings menu... unless it's maybe displaying less than 640x480 so that's why maybe the converter doesn't work etc. Just wondering if anyone has any other advice asides from the older monitor which I'm trying to arrange right now? I might have also just picked up a dud I guess?!? I'll also post what I've tried below. MANY THANKS




So far I've tried...

reset bios/ clear CMOS

double check all connections

re-seat ram + CPU

onboard graphics output only, then add GPU using gpu out VGA

removing IDE H.D

put a new CR2032 battery on the board

I'm about to double check the bios version vs the CPU in case someone stuck it in and it wasn't supported without an update (although my experience says it most likely wouldn't even initially post if that was the case)




**Will edit with any other things tried later**

 

[ajacocks]

art84,

You might want to ask over on vogons.org, as we don't really have many members who post about things that new, here.

Good luck!
- Alex

 

[Chuck(G)]

After the screen goes black, does the "Caps Lock" LED light up on the keyboard if you press the corresponding key? If so, your system isn't dead; you monitor just doesn't like the standard VGA 640x480 that setup uses.

 

[art84]

After the screen goes black, does the "Caps Lock" LED light up on the keyboard if you press the corresponding key? If so, your system isn't dead; you monitor just doesn't like the standard VGA 640x480 that setup uses.

Hey Chuck, I just tried that and the caps button light does work (after pressing del and waiting, so in theory inside of the bios settings menu). I guess until I get another monitor I won't know for sure. thanks though that's a good tip to remember!

 

[NeXT]

I second that. The chain of adapters doesn't like the video mode switch and is dropping your signal.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

I would also agree with it being a display issue. Most newer televisions won't sync to older display resolutions like those used in the DOS era without using something like a scan doubler. You'll need to pick up an older LCD computer monitor, 17 and 19" Dell LCD monitors are still somewhat common, and they'll work fine with old DOS resolutions. When you start getting into wide screen monitors, that's when support for old 4:3 and 5:4 resolutions starts to drop off.

The motherboard itself could also be a source of headaches. I vividly remember working with MSI KM series boards back in the day and having endless trouble with them. The VIA chipsets they used were junk that caused the boards to be generally unstable and have compatibility issues. The VT8235 and 8237 south bridge chips were particularly problematic and were known to have compatibility issues with the Sound Blaster Live and cause massive data corruption.

MSI did eventually fix these issues in their later motherboard models. Like the KT4AV and KT880 Delta were really good motherboards.

 

[art84]

I would also agree with it being a display issue. Most newer televisions won't sync to older display resolutions like those used in the DOS era without using something like a scan doubler. You'll need to pick up an older LCD computer monitor, 17 and 19" Dell LCD monitors are still somewhat common, and they'll work fine with old DOS resolutions. When you start getting into wide screen monitors, that's when support for old 4:3 and 5:4 resolutions starts to drop off.

The motherboard itself could also be a source of headaches. I vividly remember working with MSI KM series boards back in the day and having endless trouble with them. The VIA chipsets they used were junk that caused the boards to be generally unstable and have compatibility issues. The VT8235 and 8237 south bridge chips were particularly problematic and were known to have compatibility issues with the Sound Blaster Live and cause massive data corruption.

MSI did eventually fix these issues in their later motherboard models. Like the KT4AV and KT880 Delta were really good motherboards.

I have messaged a seller about a 17" dell monitor ironically, just trying to do everything for cheap at the moment. it didn't seem like a high end board but I got the mobo, cpu, ram and matrox GPU for £10 so it was a very good deal! as long as one piece works lol.

One good thing I noticed was the msi motherboard had a 12v 4 pin CPU power connector, I know there's issues with modern PSU's having low 5V requirements for the older CPUs as they mostly use the 5V rail, so I thought it would be good for future proofing. I was looking at soundcards, I know most people use the soundblasters but you can get the cobra soundcards that use yamaha chips. I also have an old clone type soundcard with a ESS chip which is meant to be good.. thanks for the info about the issues with the soundblasters.

 

[Mike Chambers]

Nothing in life has made me feel like I'm old quite like a post about an Athlon XP system with DDR being considered a "vintage computer"!

 

[Unknown_K]

I remember Windows 98 gaming and it was on much older hardware then an Athlon XP. You do feel kind of old when you started gaming on a Atari 2600/Original Atari 800 and the PC had just come out with mono graphics and no sound or HD.

 

[Chuck(G)]

I can remember when the prospect of the development of a microprocessor was exciting. (I won't even talk about transistors).

 

[art84]

I remember Windows 98 gaming and it was on much older hardware then an Athlon XP. You do feel kind of old when you started gaming on a Atari 2600/Original Atari 800 and the PC had just come out with mono graphics and no sound or HD.

That's true.. My intention was to use software like throttle to clock down the CPU and then lower the ram amount when/if needed and use it for both WIN 98 + DOS games. Most windows XP games run on windows 10 or are patched and sold on steam etc but many older win 98 + dos games aren't available!. I've already got a modern P.C with intel 8600K @4ghz, RTX 2080 ti, 16gb ram etc but don't want to emulate stuff with dosbox due to latency, visual and sound issues plus some older parts can go for a pretty penny which I'm not trying to spend, all props to someone that wants to spend £200 on a 3DFX card for example but that's not me personally I'm looking to do the whole machine for about £50-70.

 

[art84]

I can confirm everything's working great with my new (old) dell 15" LCD flatscreen I've just got today!.

So I was right with my theory it was the VGA-HDMI adapter/modern monitor at fault. Hopefully I'll get hold of a DVI equipped AGP GPU as that seems the most successful way of using modern monitors with a DVI-HDMI converter from all my research, even though the VGA-HDMI conveter I have says it supports 680x480p I'm guessing the bios settings screen is possibly 240p? (It showed the bios post screen but not the bios settings menu, that's when it black screened).

Had the tower been fully setup when using the adapter it would most likely have worked once windows had fully booted up and displayed the GUI but that's not much help when you only have a bare board and no windows installation.. thanks everyone and I hope this helps someone else with this issue one day!

 

[J. Radon]

I have messaged a seller about a 17" dell monitor ironically, just trying to do everything for cheap at the moment. it didn't seem like a high end board but I got the mobo, cpu, ram and matrox GPU for £10 so it was a very good deal! as long as one piece works lol.

If you don't hear back from that seller, I'd say thrift stores might be a good bet. I've picked up several old monitors for dirt cheap while thrifting, and have found that VGA monitors with a more square-ish resolution are very common and great for retro gaming (for both PC and consoles if you use an av to VGA adapter)

Edit: I'm dumb, I totally missed the last post where you said you got a working monitor that fixed the problem.
You could always get a second monitor for cheap from a second hand store though :D

 

[J. Radon]

Nothing in life has made me feel like I'm old quite like a post about an Athlon XP system with DDR being considered a "vintage computer"!

I'm only 23 and I find it crazy too. Growing up, the area I lived in was a bit behind on the times due to having a less than stellar economy among other things. Most of the technology I grew up with was older and often second hand. Cassette tapes, floppies, and VHS's were the norm well into middle school. I remember my elementary school was super excited when it got a bunch of windows 98 office PC's donated to it, and we ended up with a school wide required typing curriculum program where the computer lab teacher pretty much let us goof off and play freeware/shareware DOS games most of the time.
I even remember my old curmudgeon of a computer lab teacher in middle school berating us and telling us to be careful with the 3.5 floppies our computer assignments were stored on because she didn't have a way to replace them with the combination of lack of budget and scarcity of parts compatible with our old computers. The next year we got a donation of windows 7 computers and a bunch of flash drives.
My first family computer was a windows XP machine; and while I'd call windows XP nostalgic, I certainly wouldn't call it "retro" or "vintage".

All this is pretty ironic, because just before I started highschool, my family moved to Lehi Utah, where a bunch of tech companies started building. There was a micron and adobe building right near my house.

I remember in highschool I could always count on finding a PC or two any time I went to the thrift store; but after moving to Oregon near the Portland area I can't find any good PC stuff at any of the thrift stores.

​​​​​​​I'd say the most legit "vintage" system I have is my grandfather's Atari 800XL with two 5.25 floppy drives, a tape drive, all the manuals, and a bunch of program booklets.

 

[art84]

If you don't hear back from that seller, I'd say thrift stores might be a good bet. I've picked up several old monitors for dirt cheap while thrifting, and have found that VGA monitors with a more square-ish resolution are very common and great for retro gaming (for both PC and consoles if you use an av to VGA adapter)

Edit: I'm dumb, I totally missed the last post where you said you got a working monitor that fixed the problem.
You could always get a second monitor for cheap from a second hand store though :D

I buy secondhand P.C/audio/tech stuff quite often but mostly off facebook marketplace, gumtree or sometimes ebay. Thrift stores or as we call them in the U.K "charity shops" aren't often that good and are filled with granny clothes and child's books.. at least near me .

It's not the best monitor I've purchased but it was only £10 so I'll probably find some kind of solution longterm for it to work on my 27" L.G 240hz monitor, just needed this cheap dell LCD to know whether or not everything worked.. I'm happy though, I've spent £20 and have the motherboard, cpu, ram, gpu and monitor! All secondhand. It's all worth way more than double what I paid for everything

 

[GiGaBiTe]

VGA-HDMI conveter I have says it supports 680x480p I'm guessing the bios settings screen is possibly 240p? (It showed the bios post screen but not the bios settings menu, that's when it black screened).

There are a whole bunch of DOS display modes that are not 640x480, as well as refresh rates and interlaced modes that will cause signal converters to choke. There are also video chips that don't really conform to video standards and do naughty things, so those converter boards often have issues.

 

[Mike Chambers]

There are a whole bunch of DOS display modes that are not 640x480, as well as refresh rates and interlaced modes that will cause signal converters to choke. There are also video chips that don't really conform to video standards and do naughty things, so those converter boards often have issues.

Indeed, the usual mode 3 (80x25 text) on a VGA is actually 720x400 @ 70 (72??) Hz, IIRC.