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IBM 8513 Blurry

falter

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Jan 22, 2011
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I got an 8513 for cheap ($45). Seller said it was tested 'working. It does turn on and display a picture, however everything is fairly blurry, esp. text. Is this something I can adjust? I've heard these monitors are usually not worth the attempt.
 
Interesting.. as I finished writing this it seemed to improve greatly.. : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LfSowFyt6WIP0Bk5ublwectZsMQ4Yi1S?usp=sharing

We had an 8513 as the family computer monitor with our PS/2 Model 30 when I was a kid. Early 90s would have been the last time I used one, and I honestly can't remember what the quality of text and graphics was. I seem to remember being impressed by a later monitor we got in terms of sharpness. Looking at it this monitor seems smaller than what i remember as a kid, but as I put it atop my own Model 30 it does seem kinda correct proportions. I dunno.

The only thing I'm noticing now is that if I fiddle with the brightness it sometimes will cause the vertical size to expand beyond the physical borders of the CRT. I don't think anything came loose in transit.. shaking/tapping it has no effect, there's no sounds of anything broken inside and the exterior is flawless.
 
The only thing I'm noticing now is that if I fiddle with the brightness it sometimes will cause the vertical size to expand beyond the physical borders of the CRT. I don't think anything came loose in transit.. shaking/tapping it has no effect, there's no sounds of anything broken inside and the exterior is flawless.
Image bloom. You either have low or poor regulation on the tube's high voltage. IF it's just kind of improving while sitting there running I'd strongly suspect a capacitor issue.
 
BTW. Some IBM 8513 faults (with fixes) listed at [here].

Yeah I was looking at those and another site. Interestingly, the issue has pretty much vanished and text looks normal.

I wish I could get over my fear of working on CRTs... then I'd have no problem following the recommended protocol for rejuvenating these.

I wonder if these monitors have RIFAs or anything else that can blow up suddenly. I'm not planning to use this very often at all.. just looks good on my PS/2 display.
 
Yeah I was looking at those and another site. Interestingly, the issue has pretty much vanished and text looks normal.

I wish I could get over my fear of working on CRTs... then I'd have no problem following the recommended protocol for rejuvenating these.

I wonder if these monitors have RIFAs or anything else that can blow up suddenly. I'm not planning to use this very often at all.. just looks good on my PS/2 display.

When a CRT gun is going low on emission or is contaminated it can produce the kind of delayed warmup effects and poor focus issues.

The whole notion of "rejuvinating" CRT's is an interesting and controversial area, only very rarely met with any success.

Various combined CRT-Tester-Rejuvinator units were used, or perhaps tried. In my opinion after some years of CRT experience and even once working in a CRT rebuilding plant, it is largely a futile exercise (rejuvination that is) and any improvements are transient, if any. Though in other areas such as bright emitter tubes from the 1920's, temperature cycling protocols can work well, but not so much for degraded oxide coated cathodes, especially in aged CRT's. Some people got the impression that a lot of companies wouldn't have made CRT rejuvinators if they didn't work, but you can also buy plastics discs to stick on your car to prevent rusting, or electronic "rust prevention" devices, or Rodent repellants, or energy saving devices you plug into a GPO, many of which don't work either.

On the other hand, it is possible to significantly increase the electron emission from the aged and contaminated cathode emissive surface by running it at a higher temperature. CRT "Brighteners" which were mainly just step up auto-transformers were once popular in the TV service industry and you could sometimes squeeze some more life, even a year or two out of a CRT this way.

One test that can be performed (though it was not well documented in TV service literature) with the right electrical conditions on the gun & EHT electrode and no scanning was to make an electron optic image of the cathode appear on the screen phosphor, to inspect its condition. This was done more at CRT re-gun plants than by TV service techs. I have a photo of this, I will post it when I get home tonight.
 
I've had a few of these, and I think all had some amount of blurriness and convergence issues, even in the early 90's. I'm sure a cap kit would not hurt it (unless you did it wrong) but I wouldn't expect it to look like a later 90's display.
 
I've had a few of these, and I think all had some amount of blurriness and convergence issues, even in the early 90's.
Where I worked, the 8513 was the standard monitor that we supplied with PS/2 units to users (unless a better monitor was justified).
From my work notes of the 80's/90's:

IBM released a large number of 8513's which have defective flyback transformers. The defective transformers cause poor focus. Sometimes observed is that the transformers can be adjusted to bring in the focus but they will only drift out of focus later.
The 8513's which are affected by defective flyback transformers have a serial number under 72-0044342 and IBM has extended the warranty on these to 3 years for 'poor focus' faults only.
The turn around time on warranty replacement of these 8513's is typically months and so it generally easier and more convenient to replace the flyback transformer yourself.


The information about the 72-0044342 serial number, and extended warranty, would have been supplied to us by the IBM reseller we used.
 
This one seems to behave fairly well with my Commodore 486 55MT using an S3 Virge card. In DOS it seems perfectly legible now, in games it seems ok.. It is no longer requiring any warmup time on startup.. even after a day of sitting turned off. Windows 3.1 for some reason it expands beyond the boundaries of the CRT a little bit. However, if I hook it up to a Model 70 PS/2 the blurriness is quite pronounced, as well as if I hook it up to the original Trident card the Commodore came with.
 
It's not uncommon for a CRT to need some time to wake up after years of disuse. I see it a lot when restoring vintage TVs, and it's not a sign that the CRT is close to failure.

It does look like the center convergence could be better. This is adjusted by rotating the magnetic rings around the CRT neck. The focus control is on the flyback, and is simple to adjust. Also, keep in mind that CRTs defocus if the contrast is turned up too high.
 
Also, keep in mind that CRTs defocus if the contrast is turned up too high.

The reason for this is that the peak to peak drive of the video signal to the CRT's grid-cathode becomes large enough that it starts to drive the relative grid voltage positive with respect to the cathode, this causes grid current and changes the form of the beam leaving the cathode and the beam focus goes off fairly abruptly at that point.

If a CRT is getting low on emission, the user often rotates the contrast control to a higher level, and the brightness control too ( this sets the DC axis of the relative grid to cathode voltage) in an attempt to gain a better image, and both of these factors can push the CRT gun into grid current and defocus. So a sign of an aged and worn out CRT with low gun emission is when you cannot acquire adequate brightness and contrast before this sudden defocus effect appears.

If the scanning raster is about the correct size, the EHT value is normal because the raster size is inversely proportional to the square root of the EHT value. If the scanning raster increases in size, at higher CRT beam currents (Brightness) the EHT regulation can be poor, and this is called "blooming" , but it was more of a problem in the past in tube sets with tube EHT rectifiers going low on emission and raising the internal resistance of the EHT as a voltage source, than in modern sets with semiconductor EHT rectifiers.

Sometimes it does take some experience examining a VDU or TV that has CRT brightness, focus and contrast issues, to determine if the nature of the problem is in the CRT's support circuitry or the fault of the CRT itself, but if you have worked with CRTs long enough it sort of becomes second nature.

It is not just the gun emission that is important. As CRT's age the phosphor efficiency drops off and even relatively small amounts of gas, which would be well tolerated in tubes for other applications can cause some beam defocus. A TV raster scan is the most demanding application for a CRT, in that the beam's energy has to be high enough to illuminate the entire faceplate, unlike say a scope where the beam can spend much more time delivering energy to the phosphor for a single scanning line. The beam brightness is roughly inversely proportional to its rate of travel. This effect was noted in the early days of TV, and rather than modulating the beam current, the beam velocity was modulated in one TV system, invented by Bedford and Puckle at Cossor in the UK.

In summary, a TV or VDU CRT does have to be in top order to produce a high contrast sharp as a tack image that maintains the beam focus over a wide range of beam currents. When a CRT is brand new the results can be quite good, especially with a well designed video amplifier driving the CRT. Have a look at the monochrome images produced on these Conrac Avionics grade video monitors that I fitted with new old stock 14BAP4 CRT's, un-touched up photos of the CRT's face, for still frame images, are shown on pages 20,21 and 22:

https://www.worldphaco.com/uploads/T...o_monitor..pdf

(PS: this was a video monitor where no schematic or manual was available, so I had to painstakingly copy the whole thing out from the actual set and document it, quite a big job, but it goes to show, you can do it for VDU's, if you are prepared to spend the time that is)
 
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I dug out the monitor for a video I was doing after sitting for months, and again the focus was awful, but after a while it got better, and in the last few days it seems to get better with time, to the point that text is perfectly legible. That said, I can definitely see color fringing, particularly red on text. To be honest, it has been so long since I had the same monitor as a kid, I can't remember how sharp text was or if there was any fringing. Its hard to photograph and compare to photos online. I don't think my childhood 8513 was ever that sharp - I remember we ditched it eventually I think for image quality issues.

One odd thing.. when the computer changes to graphics mode it often expands the screen vertically. I've noticed adjusting the dial closest to the front of the CRT (brightness?) causes the picture to expand or contract vertically when you adjust it.

I'd love to investigate.. I just have to find a way to get over my fear of getting zapped. Do you need to discharge to rotate the magnetic rings or adjust focus on the flyback? I figure it's worth a shot.
 

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There's really no need to be afraid of working on a CRT display. The only time you need to discharge the CRT is when removing the HV suction cup connector from the side of the CRT. Even then, that's easy, and safe to do if you know how. Unless you need to completely separate the chassis from the CRT, replace the CRT, or flyback you don't need to disconnect it.

By FAR the most dangerous part of a CRT monitor is the low voltage power supply. There is much more current available there, and it's easier to accidentally contact it. I'm the most careful when working on a computer power supply because they often have around 400v on the primary side, and they will hold a charge for some time. Just treat it like any mains powered device.

Be sure to look up the procedure for adjusting the convergence. It's not hard, but you need to know what they do, or you'll quickly make it worse.
 
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