Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

"removable disc/cartridge" SCSI drives that can act as a fixed disk drive

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Samir
    replied
    I loved caddy-based CD drives--they were superior in every way except cost, so they lost out.

    Leave a comment:


  • olePigeon
    replied
    I'm late to this thread, but I'd like to second the Megneto Optical drives. I use them extensively on my Macs. I have two 3.5" 2.3GB Fujitsue MO drives.

    Leave a comment:


  • ziloo
    replied
    Originally posted by krebizfan View Post
    ......There were caddy drives where a whole cartridge is inserted.....
    That was so nifty....I had never seen one or I had forgotten even if I had!


    ...Meet the Olivetti minidisk and be in awe.....
    I am in awe..... .......Those Italians......like their art, they let it all hang out!!!!


    ziloo

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck(G)
    replied
    Reminds me of the following two:

    Brush Mail-a-Voice, ca. 1946
    Timex magnetic disc recorder, ca. 1954

    Olivetti was simply 30 years behind the times...

    Leave a comment:


  • krebizfan
    replied
    Originally posted by ziloo View Post
    My problem with the CD world is the CD driver! I like the
    idea that you insert a diskette inside a computer, and
    the rest of the mechanical chore is done without your
    intervention. I don't like to see a piece of hardware
    sticking its flimsy tongue at me, so that I place a puny
    piece of plastic on it to get some information! How do you
    feel if you had to remove the inner magnetic softy out of
    the sleeve to shove it inside the floppy disk driver!?

    ziloo
    You don't have to have a tray optical drive. There were caddy drives where a whole cartridge is inserted. Other drives had lids that lifted up and the disc placed directly on the center ring. The latter were a bit inconvenient in a traditional PC case.

    There was a type of floppy drive that required removing the cookie from its sleeve. Meet the Olivetti minidisk and be in awe. One thing the web page does not show is that the serial number on one side of the disk was stamped which prevents using that side for data.

    http://www.computerhistory.it/index....ppy&Itemid=134
    http://www.obsoletemedia.org/olivetti-minidisc/

    Leave a comment:


  • ziloo
    replied
    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    ...One thing that I've always been bothered about with CDs is that .....
    My problem with the CD world is the CD driver! I like the
    idea that you insert a diskette inside a computer, and
    the rest of the mechanical chore is done without your
    intervention. I don't like to see a piece of hardware
    sticking its flimsy tongue at me, so that I place a puny
    piece of plastic on it to get some information! How do you
    feel if you had to remove the inner magnetic softy out of
    the sleeve to shove it inside the floppy disk driver!?

    ziloo

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck(G)
    replied
    One thing that I've always been bothered about with CDs is that data is recorded in a spiral, rather than concentric tracks, as in a hard disk. While I can appreciate the design for audio use, the idea of "you don't know where you are unless you know where you've been" seems to make CDs with small flaws in them totally unusuable. Perhaps there is software out there to navigate over bad spots, but I'm not aware of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • krebizfan
    replied
    I have a number of old storage media that I trot out once a year or so to test if the data is still good. 10 year flash drives which keep data but newer flash drives seem to lose data in a year or less. 15 year old CDRs of which a small percent have flaws in the coating that makes them look pockmarked and fail to read.

    I am surprised at how fast memory card readers drop support for older standards. New readers with support for xD became scarce before xD cards had finished moving through the supply chain. I am more used to the floppy or tape progression when it was relatively easy to get new devices to read the old storage 5, even 10, years after it fades from production.

    Leave a comment:


  • Unknown_K
    replied
    My old CDRs seem to be fine when I bother to check them. I also burned a couple individually wrapped in a CD jewel case 4x CDR purchased back in the day when I was in the lab and needed to burn something and was too lazy to hit my room for a spool, they worked fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck(G)
    replied
    Originally posted by Samir View Post
    Really amazing to see an old reel of computer tape--especially with 'Memorex' on it. Memorex CDRs have a 1:10 failure rate in our application, lol.
    And this was kinda more my point in that while the media is obviously lasting, the lack of drives effectively makes the media (and the overall format) less valuable.
    That's an interesting question.
    If the information is valuable and it survives, someone will find a way to read it.

    Memorex underwent a drastic change after the Burroughs/Unisys/Tandy musical chairs episode. 1980s 1/2" Memorex tape (e.g. MRX IV) was cheap and terrible. It's known for "sticky shed" issues and can be a real pain in the *ss. Earlier Memorex tapes are fine, as the ghost of Ella Fitzgerald would probably testify.

    I have several Mitsui media that are now over 10 years old and read back as well as the day they were written. I also have some of the original Sony and other branded CDR media (that cost $11-12/ea at the time), and wonder if they will read back (haven't tried yet). I think the media will definitely survive as long as the tape that Chuck(G) shared, and probably a bit longer. The question is if a drive that works will be around to read the media.
    I've got older Mitsui "gold" media that's probably closer to 20 years old. Since I almost never go back to check my old CD-Rs, I don't know if they've survived. I do remember that it was expensive. Again, if the medium has valuable information and has survived intact, it can be read if there's a will to do so, even if one has to build a drive from scratch.

    Leave a comment:


  • Samir
    replied
    Originally posted by cchaven View Post
    I know my Pinnacle Micro Sierra 1.3GB is 1024 bytes/sector but it will also work with the 512 bytes/sector media that DOS wants.



    The interesting thing about records/LP/etc is that it really doesn't take much to play them back. Just look at the acoustic era with the RCA Victrola and Edison Amberola machines. Wax and plastic cylinders and shellac disks played back with little more than a needle of various types vibrating a diaphragm and amplified by a large horn. Nothing electrical and the most complex part of the machine was the spring wound motor. I'd think it'd be fairly easy to any advanced civilization to figure out how to read them.
    The more I read, the more I seem to recall about our old drive. I believe it was compatible with 512, 1024, and 2048 sectored media, although read-only for either the 1024 or both 1024 and 512.

    True, but my point is not that it is impossible to read the data back, but that because the formats of removable media change, the ability to quickly read them back can vary greatly.

    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    Oh, I don't know about that. 1/2" magnetic tape on open reels has proved to be a very durable medium. Lately, I've been working with tapes that are more than 50 years old quite successfully.

    Got anything else that's more than 50 years old for data storage? Paper, maybe?

    Do you really expect data stashed in the cloud to be around in 50 years? I have trouble finding stuff on the net written 5 years ago.

    For example
    I think the problem with cloud data is that it is being deleted. And this is a greater problem than actual data loss as the information could have existed from a technological standpoint. I agree that I can't find things online from 10 years ago, and this seems to be a growing problem as the history of mankind turns to digital and online media as a repository. Imagine if mankind only remembers the last 20 years or only what it wants to remember?
    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    Look at the date on that tape. Know any other data storage medium that lasts 50 years and isn't paper?

    Samir claims that "tape never made it as a long term archive medium".

    That tape was already 10 years old when Voyager 1 was launched--and it's quite readable today.
    I didn't claim that tape never made it as a long term archive medium in the past, just that it isn't as viable today and hence why retrieval of data on tapes does require specialized equipment (that was once probably pretty standard).

    Really amazing to see an old reel of computer tape--especially with 'Memorex' on it. Memorex CDRs have a 1:10 failure rate in our application, lol.
    Originally posted by krebizfan View Post
    Clay. Stone. Sumerian missives can still be located and translated which is a longevity not even paper can match.

    Some of the modern storage methods should last for centuries barring fire or explosion. But a tricky format that only works on a single model of drive is a bad idea for storage. I know companies that preferred the manufacturer suggested special format and now have no easy way to read the data back. Getting 10% more data on disc or tape is not worth the aggravation of vendor lock-in.
    And this was kinda more my point in that while the media is obviously lasting, the lack of drives effectively makes the media (and the overall format) less valuable.
    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    I was going to add "stone" to the list, but thought better of it.

    The problem there is extremely low information density. The other problem is that we can get the gist of ancient missives, but rarely understand the subtleties of them. After all, we don't think with the ancient brains or live in their culture.

    But consider the announcement of Mitsui/MAM-A CD-R media, projecting a 300 year retention. Does anyone really believe that a CD-R will endure for 300 years today?
    That's an interesting question. I have several Mitsui media that are now over 10 years old and read back as well as the day they were written. I also have some of the original Sony and other branded CDR media (that cost $11-12/ea at the time), and wonder if they will read back (haven't tried yet). I think the media will definitely survive as long as the tape that Chuck(G) shared, and probably a bit longer. The question is if a drive that works will be around to read the media.

    Leave a comment:


  • KC9UDX
    replied
    And scientific consensus blinds us constantly, in this case assuming that ancient minds were primitive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck(G)
    replied
    Originally posted by krebizfan View Post
    Clay. Stone. Sumerian missives can still be located and translated which is a longevity not even paper can match.
    I was going to add "stone" to the list, but thought better of it.

    The problem there is extremely low information density. The other problem is that we can get the gist of ancient missives, but rarely understand the subtleties of them. After all, we don't think with the ancient brains or live in their culture.

    But consider the announcement of Mitsui/MAM-A CD-R media, projecting a 300 year retention. Does anyone really believe that a CD-R will endure for 300 years today?

    Leave a comment:


  • ziloo
    replied
    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    ....That tape was already 10 years old when Voyager 1 was launched...
    You just cross correlated the lunar orbiter tape with the voyager's launch date...!!!???
    I don't think there would ever be a storage medium to compete with yours Chuck!


    ziloo

    Leave a comment:


  • krebizfan
    replied
    Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
    Look at the date on that tape. Know any other medium that lasts 50 years and isn't paper?

    Samir claims that "tape never made it as a long term archive medium".
    Clay. Stone. Sumerian missives can still be located and translated which is a longevity not even paper can match.

    Some of the modern storage methods should last for centuries barring fire or explosion. But a tricky format that only works on a single model of drive is a bad idea for storage. I know companies that preferred the manufacturer suggested special format and now have no easy way to read the data back. Getting 10% more data on disc or tape is not worth the aggravation of vendor lock-in.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X