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Looking for insight into video design

falter

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So I'm pretty close, I think, to solving my 'no text's situation with this Hyperion. I'm just trying to understand the circuit a little better. The datasheet for the SMC 8021 says you can connect video output right to the VID pin, and I have verified that you can and that it produces text there.

So I'm wondering why you need to have a couple of 7474s, a 7408 and two 74157s downstream from the 8021's VID pin before it gets to video out. VID goes to the D of a 7474, the Q of that 7474 goes is ANDed with something in a 7408, and then out to a 74157, and then to a 74244, one half of which goes to composite video out, the other to 'video out'

Is that something to do with switching between text and video modes? Ie so that text is suppressed when graphics mode is active?
 
The spec sheet I saw says you can connect it to a video input. This is not a composite video though, if that is what you want.
Dwight
 
No - but I did connect composite to that pin anyway, and could clearly see text being output. So I'm reasonably confident that is working.

I have traced the circuit further down though, and have found a potential problem with the 74LS08 at U52. You can see in the pic here that the VID signal from the SMC passed through the 7474 and then is ANDed using two gates on that chip. The second AND gate seems to be working fine, but there is zero output on pin 11, even though there is signal on pins 13 and 12.

hyperionvidprob.jpg

Here's a larger version - the forum shrinks pictures too much which is why i avoid using it. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FqHBvV2vWY3niHDmHiJqnZCDjo-pKNsK/view?usp=sharing
 
So I removed and installed another 7408. Now I am getting no text at all and a cursor that immediately is placed mid screen. The machine will not try to boot.

I checked the EPROM... there is activity going in but nothing on the outputs.

I'm concerned this board may be more than 2 layer. When I was removing the 7408 one of the pads broke off. The pad on that side wasn't connected to anything, and the pad on the other side appeared to be ok.

I'm looking at the datasheet for the 2732 and I don't see anything that could be acting on it to stop it from outputting data. Not sure what the deal is here.
 
Is there anything that activates or shuts off a 2732 internally? Or if you see data going in, does that mean there should always be data coming out? I'm seeing data going in no problem on all the address lines, but zero coming out. 2732 tests okay in my reader.
 
I am seeing vias that go from one side to the other but appear to go nowhere from there.. is that possibly a sign that this board has more than 2 layers?
 
Yeah, darn it.. I think this board has more than 2 layers. I think when one of the vias in the 7408 socket broke, it broke a connection between that pin and wherever it goes. At this point i'm thinking it's a pulldown on one of the unused AND gates.
 
For sure. One thing I'm not clear on.. when you see on a schematic multiple connections coming together as one and then going out from there collectively to another page.. does that mean they are electrically connected, or is that just a convenient way of getting them all to the next drawing?

Like say I have a connection from Pin 1 of one IC and then another coming from pin 2 of another IC.. the schematic will have to two lines come together and then go off as one line to another page.
 
Depends, but it might be a bus interface. Similar how data lines D0..D7 are usually just drawn as a single (sometimes thick) line, which then contains all wires independently. In that case, you need to pay attention to the labels.
 
For sure. One thing I'm not clear on.. when you see on a schematic multiple connections coming together as one and then going out from there collectively to another page.. does that mean they are electrically connected, or is that just a convenient way of getting them all to the next drawing?

Like say I have a connection from Pin 1 of one IC and then another coming from pin 2 of another IC.. the schematic will have to two lines come together and then go off as one line to another page.

That's usually just a way of getting them to another page as a bus or signal group. Does not mean they are electrically connected unless you see a dot joining them
 
Also, there's no substitute for good old mental work. Make the effort to understand how and why the circuit works and the schematic will become self-explanatory. One word of advice--schematics have been known to contain errors, so don't assume that they're absolutely correct.
 
I'm trying, Chuck. And bits of it are starting to make sense. I'm not an engineer or a math wiz, so it takes me longer to grasp concepts. But at least I feel like I'm starting to ask the right questions. I didn't fully understand the Hyperion video circuit and how it switched from graphic and text mode, but I understood that I had a text problem and was able to follow the circuit along looking for problems. Still got a lot to learn though and appreciate the help from those that understand!
 
I'm trying, Chuck. And bits of it are starting to make sense. I'm not an engineer or a math wiz, so it takes me longer to grasp concepts. But at least I feel like I'm starting to ask the right questions.

You are asking the right questions.

These are some things that will help you every time you go to repair a fault:

When you find the schematic of the circuit you are trying to repair, print it out as a paper copy to have on the desk in front of you. Print out the salient page of the data sheet of each IC in the area you are working, specifically its truth table and its internal logic diagram , very useful for 74LS series TTL IC's so you can see what it is doing, or should be doing, with different logic states on its various pins.

Have a scope ready to look at these logic levels, but if you don't have that, a bare minimum of a cheap logic probe.

(As a brief aside, there was an idea cooked up for repairing TTL based video games in the early 1970's, games like Atari Pong & Tank. You make a "video probe" which is merely a 1k resistor and a wire connected to the video out terminal of the board and therefore the CRT monitor's video input and you can see the pulses/signals/data on various IC pins on the video image when you touch the wire on various test points, its actually clever in the absence of test equipment and its a sneaky way to do it, like using one working channel of a faulty scope to help repair the other channel if you don't have another scope at hand)

Back to your circuit, the video data coming out of the vid pin of U21 is presented to the data input of the '74 flip flop U49. This data gets clocked to the Q output (pin 5 of U49) on the rising edge of the clock pulse presented at pin 3. For this flip flop to be working, the clock pulses must be there and the flip flop's set and reset pins, pins 4 and 1 must both be high.

Assuming that is ok, then the video data passes to the two and gates pin 13 & 2 of 74LS08 (U52) , you can see by the circuit, likely pin 1 of U52 will be high at this time(or both halves U49 would be inactive in a set condition) so the pulses you would see on U52 pin 3 should likely look what they do on U49 pin 5.

Whether or not pulses(video data) appears on pin 11 of the 74ls08, depends on the flip flop U49 pin 9. Again its set and reset pins must be high at the time it is clocked. The data input to it, on pin 12 must be high, this causes a high to be clocked to its Q output, pin 9 which takes pin 12 of the 74ls08 high allowing the video data out of pin 11 of the 74ls08. As you can see from this, it depends on the condition of the Q output on U37 because it is providing the data input to U49.

So assuming the above circuits are active and working the two outputs pin 11 and pin 3 of the 74ls08 can have video data on them that was derived from U21. These are presented to a data selector/multiplexer IC U35 a 74ls157. If you look this IC up you will see that it has a control line, pin 1 which causes the IC to select from pairs of inputs, for example inputs 1A or 1B get selected to output 1Y, and at the same time 2A or 2B get selected to output 2Y. Looking at its truth table, the strobe input must be low (it is tied low in your circuit with a resistor) and for example when the select line pin 1 is low 1A passes out to 1Y and 2A passes out to 2Y. So, to get video data out of that IC, that originates via the 74ls08 IC, the select line pin 1 of U35 has to be low.

(You might at this point be wondering why the data is doubled up on, why have the two outputs from the 74ls08, not just one , this is explained below)

Lets say it is ok and the circuit is working up until this point and you have the video data coming out pin 4 and pin 7 of U35 , that data passes from U35 to a 74ls244 tristate non inverting schmitt trigger data buffer IC U66. And this is easy here, because its control pin, pin 19 is tied low, so the the data on its pin 11 simply passes to pin 9 and that presented to pin 15 simply passes to pin 5.

As you can see these pulses out of u66 are mixed in two different analog levels into the video output signal: pin 9 U66 passes to a 220R resistor and pin 5 to a 120R resistor. So this creates a "2 bit" or 4 grey level video system where the data output from u66 pin 5 is the "MSB" and that from U66 pin 9 the LSB.

This is why the circuitry involving U49, U52, U35 and U37 exists, is to create a 4 shade of grey system from the single vid output level from U21, I don't know your machine at all, but it might be so the graphics and text can simply also be mixed together. If this is the case the graphics signal will be the one clocked out of u49, pin 9.

To complete the composite video out to connector J5, the syncs are mixed in via resistor R12 a 470R that come out of pin 14 U66.

So the key to fixing this sort of circuitry is to try to understand what it is supposed to be doing first, familiarize yourself with the particular IC's and what they do. Then check with the scope and or logic probe to attempt to find out why its not doing what it should.
 
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Thanks Holden.

And a lot of what you've described is what I do nowadays.. my desk is festooned with printouts of the schematic, datasets for ICs, truth tables and so on. That was one of the reasons I zeroed in on the 74ls08.. because I could see inputs into one of the AND hated but nothing coming out of pin 11. I'm so you're saying that pin could be held low on purpose by the 74157? Or that it would be simply not selected by it to pass through?
 
FALTER's post : "That was one of the reasons I zeroed in on the 74ls08.. because I could see inputs into one of the AND hated but nothing coming out of pin 11. I'm so you're saying that pin could be held low on purpose by the 74157? Or that it would be simply not selected by it to pass through?"

Inputs to 74LS IC's have a much higher internal resistance than outputs, so if there is no signal on the output of an IC, it is not likely this is the case because another IC input it is connected to has loaded it down to nothing, so no, it won't be the 74LS157 explaining why there is no signal/pulses on pin 11 of the 74LS08.

The most likely reason if there are no pulses on pin 11 of the 74LS08 (if that is the case and assuming there are pulses on its pin 13 and the 74LS08 is not defective and the circuit tracks are not broken) is that pin 12 of the 74LS08 is low (check that), because pin 9 of the '74 flip flop U49 might be low. As noted for the '74 flip flop to clock a high to its Q output pin 9, the set and reset pins must both be high, the data input must be high and it must be receiving a clock pulse to clock the high data to the Q output. If that Q output is low you need to investigate all the circuitry that determines the inputs to that flip flop.

Even if there was a fault there and nothing out of pin 11, this should not stop the text data coming from pin 3 of the 74LS08 reaching the video output.
 
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Thanks Hugo.

Before attempting my repair I saw signals at pins 12 and 13 on the 74ls08, and nothing on pin 11. I verified it a few times.

So I removed it and subbed in with another, hoping to see a change. Unfortunately as I mentioned, one pad separated from the board. Not realizing the board was more than 2 layers and seeing that the affected pad was not connected to anything, I soldered in a socket and put another 74ls08. But now instead of getting a solid cursor that moved as text was supposed to be placed there (and wasn't), I got a cursor out in the middle of the screen and the machine now will not boot at all.

I went back to the 74ls08 (u52) and traced every single pin on each schematic. The only pin I could not account for, pin 4, went to something labelled as VSYNC 4c5 on the schematic and the trace abruptly ended. I assumed since the trace ended at 4c5 on the schematic that I was to look for a 4c5 elsewhere, maybe on one of the other sheets, where it would resume to its destination. I could not find it, but I did find vsync (4c8). But my multimeter could not find a connection between them.

Suspecting maybe that the attributes controller replacement I had previously installed might be fake or flaky, I removed the one I had installed and place another. Still got the cursor windscreen, still no boot, but the cursor now blinks. Which is what it is supposed to do but had never done until now.

On the 2732 I can see stuff coming from the 74283 for A0 to A3.. but A4 through A11 are silent, and there is nothing going out from the EPROM's outputs. Pin 18 and pin 20 are low, so it should be enabled.

For all I know, something else on either board has given up the ghost. I suppose it is possible the two 74ls08 spares I tried could be defective too.. or something in that third layer that was connected but isn't after my repair attempt. This is going to be a tough one.
 
For all I know, something else on either board has given up the ghost. I suppose it is possible the two 74ls08 spares I tried could be defective too.. or something in that third layer that was connected but isn't after my repair attempt. This is going to be a tough one.

If you had text data coming out of the vid pin of U21 before you replaced the 74ls08 (was that the case ?) then it disappeared after it was replaced, likely something did happen to the pcb connections around or on pins 4,5 & 6 if that gate is used in another part of the circuitry. On the circuit you posted I can only see 3 of the other gates in that package.

Does this computer definitely have a multi-layer pcb ? if it does you will need to double check all the connections leading to and from the 74ls08, to at least get the situation back to where it was before you replaced the IC.

I tend to think of the pcb as being much more valuable than the DIL IC, especially generic 74 types (with some exceptions such as ROMs and special parts) Only when I am 99.9% convinced an IC is definitely faulty, after exhaustive tests with the scope, I sacrifice it, by using very sharp pointed nosed micro-cutters, cut each IC pin close to the IC body. Then I remove each pin individually by melting the solder with the iron (sometimes applying additional solder) being sure to put put any force on the pin at all, until the solder is definitely melted and then removing each pin one by one this way with some small forceps. Then clear out the holes with the sucker (easier with no pin in the hole), then clean the board area with CRC's CO contact cleaner and a cue tip. This way it does not damage the pads & tracks at all. Then inspect the area under magnification for any problems before the new IC (or socket) is fitted.
 
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