Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

Welcome back!

If you're seeing this then welcome to the NEW Vintage Computer Forums.

The forums have been updated to the latest version of the software which means new features and some changes to old ones.

Please don't be alarmed. Change is good!
2 of 2 < >

Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

Has anyone else encountered the inexplicable wrong-size stuck screw?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Has anyone else encountered the inexplicable wrong-size stuck screw?

    I'm working on getting a keyboard freed from an old luggable and one screw in a deep channel won't come out. It appears stuck in the channel. I eventually realize it's not actually holding the keyboard on, get the keyboard off, and get the screw out of the channel by simultaneously turning it from above and pushing it back out of the channel from the bottom. Here's what I find:

    screwed2.jpg

    The screw on the left is from the next screw hole over and is the original size screw. The larger screw on the right is the stuck screw. The larger screw didn't go into the matching screw hole in the keyboard very far, if it all, because a properly sized screw like the one on the left still threads into and holds in it.

    Who just picks a random screw of a different size and tries to twist it in there? Anyone else have horror stories about stuck screws and tricks to get them out?

  • #2
    I know that guy!

    He has no concept of thread diameter and pitch.
    Only length mattered.

    I spent many hours removing seized screws from equipment racks at the next equipment refresh.

    joe

    Comment


    • #3
      Been there. Was the chassis sheet metal or aluminum. I have purchased a cheap tap and die set in the past and had ZERO luck with it.. I am guessing because it was a cheap set. So I think you would need an actual expensive good set to tap a new hole and put in a proper machine screw.

      To be honest that is just the type of repair I would have done as a teenager. Just force it in!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by charnitz View Post
        I'm working on getting a keyboard freed from an old luggable and one screw in a deep channel won't come out. It appears stuck in the channel. I eventually realize it's not actually holding the keyboard on, get the keyboard off, and get the screw out of the channel by simultaneously turning it from above and pushing it back out of the channel from the bottom. Here's what I find:

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]66827[/ATTACH]

        The screw on the left is from the next screw hole over and is the original size screw. The larger screw on the right is the stuck screw. The larger screw didn't go into the matching screw hole in the keyboard very far, if it all, because a properly sized screw like the one on the left still threads into and holds in it.

        Who just picks a random screw of a different size and tries to twist it in there? Anyone else have horror stories about stuck screws and tricks to get them out?
        Don't want to hijack this thread but on the 'screw' front. I have a granddaughter that lives in Utah who gets a package of screws in the mail on a regular basis. She or her husband never ordered them and then are never sent a bill or asked to pay for them. So has quite a collection.
        Surely not everyone was Kung-fu fighting

        Comment


        • #5
          I am quite guilty of using the wrong fastener, but it's always the correct thread.

          Slot, phillips, allen, truss, button, cap... it doesn't matter as long as thread matches and it's close enough to the correct length!

          This is for computers/equipment where I'm not worried about originality of course. Only a barbarian would use cap head allen screws on an old Tandy!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Agent Orange View Post
            Don't want to hijack this thread but on the 'screw' front. I have a granddaughter that lives in Utah who gets a package of screws in the mail on a regular basis. She or her husband never ordered them and then are never sent a bill or asked to pay for them. So has quite a collection.
            Something like the Jelly of the month club?

            Comment


            • #7
              One might put the shoe on the other foot and ask why computer manufacturers persisted so long in mixing SAE and metric fasteners in the same box. Vaguely reminiscent of my made-in-Canada Ford F150--you need both sets of tools to work on that beast. 10 mm or 7/16"? It depends...

              Some of the clone cases used cheap steel so that case screws stripped out easily. I used to substitute M5 for 8-32 in those cases, but even that was stopgap. Finally put a halt to it by fitting 8-32 rivnuts in the case.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Agent Orange View Post
                Don't want to hijack this thread but on the 'screw' front. I have a granddaughter that lives in Utah who gets a package of screws in the mail on a regular basis. She or her husband never ordered them and then are never sent a bill or asked to pay for them. So has quite a collection.
                It's probably a Chinese brushing scam. Chinese sellers acquire information about people in the US and send them random packages so they can make fake reviews about their products on their online storefront.

                https://www.newsweek.com/seeds-myste...g-scam-1522999

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jlang View Post
                  I know that guy!
                  He has no concept of thread diameter and pitch.
                  Only length mattered.


                  Originally posted by VERAULT View Post
                  Was the chassis sheet metal or aluminum.
                  The chassis is plastic, but right at the bottom of the channel there is some black material, hard to tell what it is, that the screw threads through before it goes into the bore on the keyboard. I don't know what the right word is for threads on the connecting part before it goes into the bore of the other part? This is what the screw was stuck in and why it wouldn't come out of the channel without being pushed out from below.

                  The keyboard bore itself looks like brass or some shiny yellow metal. The keyboard bore is OK because the overly large screw never actually got into it, it just hung up and probably pushed the keyboard away in that spot.

                  Originally posted by TheDrip View Post
                  I am quite guilty of using the wrong fastener, but it's always the correct thread.
                  Slot, phillips, allen, truss, button, cap... it doesn't matter as long as thread matches and it's close enough to the correct length!
                  Well in my case, all the original screws on the machine are phillips, but the miscreant in my case used a combination slot/philips head in addition to not using the correct thread size, which should have been my first clue to his dirty deed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Probably a brass insert--that's good. Get out your tap set and thread all the rest to agree then get some matching screws. With the shades drawn and the lights out, nobody will ever notice...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
                      Probably a brass insert--that's good. Get out your tap set and thread all the rest to agree then get some matching screws. With the shades drawn and the lights out, nobody will ever notice...
                      Actually, the bore in the keyboard is still OK because the bad screw couldn't get far enough into it to destroy it. I think it just pushed the keyboard away rather than securing it. All I have to do is to find a screw matching the original screw.

                      It's probably pedantic to try to make sure all the screws are present and match, but if we are going to the trouble of restoring these machines, why not go all the way?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If it's not much trouble, I like to improve on replacements. Stainless instead of zinc-plated fasteners, etc.

                        Stainless is a lot cheaper than it used to be--and will never rust or corrode.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chuck(G) View Post
                          If it's not much trouble, I like to improve on replacements. Stainless instead of zinc-plated fasteners, etc.

                          Stainless is a lot cheaper than it used to be--and will never rust or corrode.
                          In my restorations of vintage equipment I often use stainless screws. The main supplier of small sized stainless screws in the USA is PSME (Precisision Scale Model Engineering) They also have varying forms of captive nuts and a myriad of small mechanical items.

                          What you see sometime with incorrect screws is simply a combination of laziness and carelessness. Sometime people who work on equipment treat it very poorly if they do not own it and they have no respect for it and use a brutal approach.

                          There are some interesting stories involving screw threads:

                          1) In WWII in the UK there was an apparent English Gentleman with a tweed coat and a polished British accent. He went into a hardware store and asked to buy a 3mm diameter screw with a metric thread. The hardware store guy reported him, he was a German spy who didn't have the sense to ask for an imperial screw.

                          2) In another case, an Aviation engineer selected an array of screws, to retain the windscreen on a Jet that had the wrong thread & length. The widow came away in use and one of the pilots got partially pushed out of the plane and the other pilot had to hold onto his legs.

                          (notice I didn't say "sucked out of a plane" nobody has ever been sucked out of a plane, they are pushed out. It is the gas mass travelling out of the plane from a zone of higher pressure to a zone of lower pressure that pushes people out of planes that have sudden holes in their fuselage. Imagine if you were in a spaceship with your suit and Helmet on, and the side wall of the ship blew out. All you have to do is to hang on long enough for the gas in the ship to leave, then there are no forces trying to push you out after it has left. When you suck a milkshake up a straw, it gets pushed from a zone of higher pressure to a zone of lower pressure in your mouth. Vacuum is merely a reduction in positive pressure to a numerical value below atmospheric pressure, that is why its numerical value can never exceed about 760mmHg , unlike actual pressure, that does the work and can exceed in value without bounds. But the whole notion of a "suction force" grabbing onto and holding something is a real enough illusion for people to believe it really exists and that you can grab something and "pull on it" when in fact the object or matter is really being pushed)

                          3) Apparently the Uni-bomber got caught because of the types of screw threads, used as the bombs were partly made from scrap aircraft equipment.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ah, so "Goldfinger" getting sucked out of a jet is just nonsense? I thought as much, though I did have a thing for the young Honor Blackman...

                            One thing that's made a huge difference in my approach to stuck fasteners is the availability of battery-powered tools with percussion power. What with my battery-powered driver and ratchet, it's rare that I mess up a fastener head nowadays.

                            Fasteners can drive you crazy. On my old Holdsworth Grand Touring bicycle, the headlight mount is BSW; I believe that the standard photo tripod mount is Whitworth also, although it does resemble a 1/4-20 SAE, but the fit isn't exact.

                            When I scrap anything, even if it's a defunct coffeemaker, I remove and save all of the screws and bolts. You never know when you'll suddenly need a strange one.
                            Last edited by Chuck(G); March 5, 2021, 02:51 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think we've all been guilty of attempting to try and use what fasteners we have around, rather than spend time and money on getting the _right_ ones.
                              When I restored my WWII jeep I went through it and ended up with an ice-cream tub of Whitworth and Metric fasteners, and the correct UNC and UNF ones but half-rusted or stripped.

                              On eBay it's now VERY easy to buy small box sets of say metric screws, M2, M3, M4 and M5 for instance. For my own projects I standardised on M3. At the moment I am working on something that uses number screws such as 2-64 and 6-32 and I've needed to order from a fasteners supplier as they're not at all common here anymore.

                              A hopefully helpful hint on removing bolts with rounded-off heads, or screws that have been cammed out: buy some stuff called ScrewGrab:
                              http://www.screwgrab.com/screw-grab.html

                              I don't have any connection to them but I can honestly tell you, this stuff is pure industrial magic and has saved me many many times. A small drop on the end of a screwdriver or on a spanner (wrench), whether it's a tiny stripped screw head in some electronic gear or a rounded-off engine water pump bolt, almost always eliminates slipping.
                              I don't know what it is but I suspect probably microscopic crushed sharp particles of perhaps tungsten carbide, in colloidal suspension. The particles bite into the screwdriver blade and the job. Get some, I can't recommend it enough and since so little is used it will last you years and years.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X