Announcement

Collapse

Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

BASIC 1964

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    BASIC 1964

    Just something I just pondered over.

    Does anyone know if the original BASIC written in 1964 support any graphics? If not, would anyone know which (e.g. APL?,PL/I?, Logo - This one came out in 1967 & would have thought it came with Turtle Graphics)?
    Naturally, Assembly would have been one (if not the first to bring in
    some graphics - as long as the machine supports it), but could someone
    suggest which High level language have some support for it?

    Oh well, if you haven't guessed yet, I'm a little keen about the Graphics
    side of things (even though I like my Command line OSes!)

    Ta.

    Cheers.
    Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

    #2
    BASIC in 1964 would have been used with a TTY, commonly an ASR-33. "Graphics" would have been ASCII punctuation and uppercase letters.

    There are some games from the 1970s that use ASCII graphics - Star Trek games come to mind (one of the more famous examples is called "SPACWAR" which is *not* the same as the PDP-1 Spacewar).

    While machines like the PDP-8 supported BASIC and could address vector hardware, I don't believe the two mixed.

    IIRC, in the case of the PDP-8, obviously assembler was the common choice for graphics, followed, I would expect, by FORTRAN.

    BASIC didn't begin to support graphics until micrcomputers came with memory-mapped displays - the TRS-80, the Apple and the Commodore PET are famous examples. I don't know about the history of BASIC on CP/M machines, but perhaps someone here could chime in with their recollections.

    -ethan

    Comment


      #3
      "erd" wrote in message:

      > BASIC in 1964 would have been used with a TTY, commonly an
      > ASR-33. "Graphics" would have been ASCII punctuation and
      > uppercase letters.

      > There are some games from the 1970s that use ASCII graphics -
      > Star Trek games come to mind (one of the more famous examples
      > is called "SPACWAR" which is *not* the same as the PDP-1
      > Spacewar).

      The BASIC Star Trek certainally brought about many variations
      & was even written in a number of other languages (Pascal being
      one).

      > While machines like the PDP-8 supported BASIC and could address
      > vector hardware, I don't believe the two mixed.

      I see you point. The trouble I find with BASIC is incorporating
      a number low-level routines into it. At the same time if the
      first version of BASIC was written so it would include
      graphical abilities of the PDP-8, then it would have been more
      restricted (graphical programming is such a big machine
      specific).

      > IIRC, in the case of the PDP-8, obviously assembler was the
      > common choice for graphics, followed, I would expect, by
      > FORTRAN.

      Yes, I could perhaps see that. FORTRAN is very good language for
      mathematical programming & vector graphics slide into that field
      too.

      > BASIC didn't begin to support graphics until micrcomputers came
      > with memory-mapped displays - the TRS-80, the Apple and the
      > Commodore PET are famous examples. I don't know about the
      > history of BASIC on CP/M machines, but perhaps someone here
      > could chime in with their recollections.

      I'm not too sure if GSX (Graphical System Extension) provides any
      support for BASIC (maybe perhaps, but I don't exactly use it
      since I look to the machine for programming). MBASIC (in CP/M-86
      is perhaps the closest thing graphics could be brought in,
      however CBASIC86 maybe able to as well - but it's so hard writing
      routines to perform this in CBASIC). BASIC in CP/M doesn't seem
      to support graphics mainly because of it being a machine specific
      thing (so the user would have to write them, depending on their
      machine). On top of CBASIC (which Digital Research wrote) they
      also wrote another BASIC which was a MBASIC clone!

      Cheers.
      Generic and Amstrad CPC based Programs written in Turbo Pascal 3

      Comment


        #4
        I'm not sure what year this was. Probably about 1970 or so. A friend of mine who wasn't a programmer had a PDP-8 at work and was on a project where he could take advantage of it but he had no idea how so I went in with him one evening after work and we played with the PDP-8 and Basic to see if I could figure out how to help him. It was just for that one day but it was the only time I ever saw Basic or even heard of it till my first exposure to an Apple years later. It was also the only Dec computer I ever saw.

        There was no opportunity for graphics on this machine. The interface was with a TTY and the only output was to the TTY or to a plotter which neither he nor I knew anything about. I don't know if Basic could deal with the plotter but nothing in the manual referred to it.

        The manual was 2 sheets of 8.5x11 paper folded and stapled into an 8 page booklet. It seemed fairly complete in that if there was nothing obvious left out.

        Variables were only 1 letter long so there could only be 26 of them. There were no subscripts as far as I can recall but I'm not sure of that. There were no strings or string functions except on the print statement and that could only take constant strings. There were no string variables. In fact there were no data types. The variables were numeric. There was no option for single or double precision. I don't recall what the precision was.

        There were no GOSUBs. Only GOTOs.

        I suspect that graphics for that Basic was a distant dream.

        This was a language for doing calculations and printing out the results. I doubt that it could do anything else.

        Keep in mind that I only had that one day's exposure to it and that was decades ago so I might not remember all this correctly. But that is how I remember it.

        Barry

        Comment

        Working...
        X