Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

Wolf3D hacked for 8086/8088 CPUs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by Fallo View Post
    It couldn't be that bad-looking if you add composite support. . .

    On a different subject, when using shift instructions on the 8086, you do:

    MOV CL,4
    SHL BX,CL (only works with CL)

    and not:

    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1
    actually, that's exactly what i did the first time around but it didn't work. the problem ended up being related to something else, and i forgot to change it back to CL. thanks for reminding me! that should help noticeably i think. i'll try it again.

    iirc, i need to PUSH cx first and POP cx when done though. i wonder how many clock ticks that adds.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fallo
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Chambers View Post
    that would actually take some pretty extreme modification, would be interesting though. CGA Wolf3D.

    *shudders*
    It couldn't be that bad-looking if you add composite support. . .

    On a different subject, when using shift instructions on the 8086, you do:

    MOV CL,4
    SHL BX,CL (only works with CL)

    and not:

    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1
    SHL BX,1

    Leave a comment:


  • JoJo_ReloadeD
    replied
    Nice work

    Originally posted by Mike Chambers View Post
    it also had the occasional pusha/popa that i had to remove and replace with lists of single push/pop instructions. there were also a bunch of SHL/SHR instructions that specified more than 1 place shift at a time. i had to split them all into multiple SHL/SHR _,1 instructions. i might be forgetting something.
    That's why I choose to make the port to the v20/v30's.. they handle SHL with multiple shifts a time.. Those bunch of shr xx,1 ... would overkill a 8088...

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by Jorg View Post
    LOL.. now I have to install a VGA card...

    "Wolf.exe -goobers" should give you the cheats.

    I'd have to try and see what happened to my skills. At one time, I was able to play the first three levels blindfolded.
    lol yeah goober is always there. i decided to add a cheat menu anyway. i've spent the last hour adding it. you can get to it right from the main menu.



    :evilsmile:

    i'll probably post a second EXE tonight or tomorrow that includes the 8086 hack as well as this cheat menu. i'm actually starting to pick up C at this point after all this hackin'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jorg
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Chambers View Post
    also, for kicks i think i'm gonna haxx0r up a cheat menu for the game.
    LOL.. now I have to install a VGA card...

    "Wolf.exe -goobers" should give you the cheats.

    I'd have to try and see what happened to my skills. At one time, I was able to play the first three levels blindfolded.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by Fallo View Post
    The V20 has the 286's real mode instructions: PUSHA, POPA, shift and rotate instructions with values greater than 1, INS, OUTS, INSB, OUTSB, INSW, OUTSW, ENTER, BOUND, and LEAVE.
    if that's the case then it sounds like the only thing that would have been required for him to make it work is bypass the 286 detection code. comment out one line and modify another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by Andretti View Post
    What about CGA or EGA support? I'm waiting for a Video-7 VEGA I bought off EBang but its maximum is 752x410 enhanced EGA.
    that would actually take some pretty extreme modification, would be interesting though. CGA Wolf3D.

    *shudders*

    Leave a comment:


  • Andretti
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Chambers View Post
    all you need is a VGA card and it'll go...
    What about CGA or EGA support? I'm waiting for a Video-7 VEGA I bought off EBang but its maximum is 752x410 enhanced EGA.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fallo
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Chambers View Post
    i didn't know that was out. wouldn't V20 code work on an 8088, or does it have instructions an 8088 doesn't? on my 4.77 MHz, if i shink the view window to about half of full size it's more or less playable. it can get hard to aim well sometimes though. i might try looking at the code a little more in depth and maybe make some modifications to speed up. i'd like to try it with the horizontal resolution cut in half, and just duplicate each slice of the picture and see how it is.
    The V20 has the 286's real mode instructions: PUSHA, POPA, shift and rotate instructions with values greater than 1, INS, OUTS, INSB, OUTSB, INSW, OUTSW, ENTER, BOUND, and LEAVE.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by barythrin View Post
    So on a bit crazier level, how easy was the tweaking? Find/Replace easy or a bit more logic to it? .. think it could be automated?

    8088patch game.exe and get Ultima and other goodies to be compatible? heh.. probably WAY less than possible but hey if you're bored and got time, it may be an interesting project to see if you could write a patcher with knowledge you and others know on compatible opcodes.

    Even a compiled binary you've got all the ML right there. I can see lots of things that might get in the way (memory allocation, need to replace opcodes with same size commands or modify jmps accordingly).
    i'm not an ASM expert, but that would probably be impossible to make a universal patcher if i had to guess. it would be cool though.

    as far as what i had to modify, it was a bit more complicated than find/replace. i had to completely cut out XMS detection routines like i said, because it locked my 8088s up. i commented out the ASM code that tests for less than a 286, and made it always JMP to the "@@Has286" subroutine.

    i also had to remove the code for fast palette changes. it changed the whole 768 bytes of palette data for the video at once with an OUTSB instruction, which an 8088 can't understand. i made it always change it one palette value at a time, looped 768 times.

    it also had the occasional pusha/popa that i had to remove and replace with lists of single push/pop instructions. there were also a bunch of SHL/SHR instructions that specified more than 1 place shift at a time. i had to split them all into multiple SHL/SHR _,1 instructions. i might be forgetting something.

    Leave a comment:


  • barythrin
    replied
    So on a bit crazier level, how easy was the tweaking? Find/Replace easy or a bit more logic to it? .. think it could be automated?

    8088patch game.exe and get Ultima and other goodies to be compatible? heh.. probably WAY less than possible but hey if you're bored and got time, it may be an interesting project to see if you could write a patcher with knowledge you and others know on compatible opcodes.

    Even a compiled binary you've got all the ML right there. I can see lots of things that might get in the way (memory allocation, need to replace opcodes with same size commands or modify jmps accordingly).

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by barythrin View Post
    I wonder what optimizations could be applied? The interesting but painful part of post-assembly editing is different commands that have the same result but 1 or two less ticks to them (for extreme resource editing).

    Also it might be interesting to see what limitations there could be in general, as in some code may just take the time it takes no matter the resources (how's it run in dosbox or a ((2/3)86)?

    Either way, pretty sweet project Mike.
    yeah good thinking. there probably are a few bits of code that could be changed to take a few less clock cycles that didn't really matter when using a 286+.

    i'm no expert on that part though. i would need a larger brain like the one Trixter has. he's obviously great with ASM optimization. maybe he'll want to take a look at my modified source files if he sees this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • barythrin
    replied
    I wonder what optimizations could be applied? The interesting but painful part of post-assembly editing is different commands that have the same result but 1 or two less ticks to them (for extreme resource editing).

    Also it might be interesting to see what limitations there could be in general, as in some code may just take the time it takes no matter the resources (how's it run in dosbox or a ((2/3)86)?

    Either way, pretty sweet project Mike.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Chambers
    replied
    Originally posted by Anonymous Coward View Post
    I'm glad there's an 808x verion available now. "JoJo Reloaded" released a V20 version of Wolf3D a few years back. I have it on my 10MHz V30 system. I don't know if I'd describe it as enjoyable, but it is somewhat playable. I'll have to try your recommendation on the ET4000 card. I'm running a VGA wonder at the moment. I never considered it to be slow, but if et4000 is that much faster then I need to try it.
    i didn't know that was out. wouldn't V20 code work on an 8088, or does it have instructions an 8088 doesn't? on my 4.77 MHz, if i shink the view window to about half of full size it's more or less playable. it can get hard to aim well sometimes though. i might try looking at the code a little more in depth and maybe make some modifications to speed up. i'd like to try it with the horizontal resolution cut in half, and just duplicate each slice of the picture and see how it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anonymous Coward
    replied
    I'm glad there's an 808x verion available now. "JoJo Reloaded" released a V20 version of Wolf3D a few years back. I have it on my 10MHz V30 system. I don't know if I'd describe it as enjoyable, but it is somewhat playable. I'll have to try your recommendation on the ET4000 card. I'm running a VGA wonder at the moment. I never considered it to be slow, but if et4000 is that much faster then I need to try it.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X