Announcement

Collapse

Forum etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


"PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

XTIDE Universal BIOS v2.0.0 beta testing thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    I would suspect that is so if you flash a non-configured image, the machine won't try to run it.

    Comment


      Originally posted by TheDrip View Post
      I would suspect that is so if you flash a non-configured image, the machine won't try to run it.
      perhaps that was the reasoning, but it's dumb IMO because it can lead to some serious wild goose chasing since that little fact is not prominently mentioned anywhere

      Comment


        Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post
        it can lead to some serious wild goose chasing since that little fact is not prominently mentioned anywhere
        thats exactly the case.
        on the webpage it is explicitly stated that i need to fill up the image with zeros, which i did. It is not stated anywhere on the official site, that its necessary to run xtidecfg before being able to build this.
        Maybe this has been mentioned before, but no one is looking up 60 pages in the forum before downloading and installing it.

        Comment


          The subject of the checksum byte in the official builds has come up once or twice before. See this.
          Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

          Comment


            Originally posted by Krille View Post
            The subject of the checksum byte in the official builds has come up once or twice before. See this.
            I agree with glitch's response. Additionally, the sign on text of the XUB could very easily point the user in the right direction regarding why it's not working properly, whereas nothing at all is extremely ambiguous.
            Last edited by maxtherabbit; March 29, 2021, 01:54 PM.

            Comment


              the missing checksum was a problem for me as I mentioned before. It is not obvious that its needed from reading over the site page. Why not just build them with the checksum?
              otherwise there should be something in bold that states the roms will not work without it and they need to either be built again using the makefile checksum option or using XTIDECFG in dosbox or with a idext card.

              Comment


                Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post
                I agree with glitch's response. Additionally, the sign on text of the XUB could very easily point the user in the right direction regarding why it's not working properly, whereas nothing at all is extremely ambiguous.
                The system BIOS won't initialize an option ROM BIOS such as the XUB if the checksum is incorrect (the checksum byte is "missing"). So that's why you don't get to see the sign on text or anything at all XUB-related. Anyway, the issue of checksum byte or no checksum byte is actually a moot point. The take away from the post I linked to is that everyone must configure the BIOS for their machine anyway and the problem at its core is that people are too lazy or too stupid to read up on the subject.
                Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Krille View Post
                  The system BIOS won't initialize an option ROM BIOS such as the XUB if the checksum is incorrect (the checksum byte is "missing"). So that's why you don't get to see the sign on text or anything at all XUB-related.
                  I know that, you clearly didn't understand my point.

                  Originally posted by Krille View Post
                  Anyway, the issue of checksum byte or no checksum byte is actually a moot point. The take away from the post I linked to is that everyone must configure the BIOS for their machine anyway and the problem at its core is that people are too lazy or too stupid to read up on the subject.
                  And the take away from my post was that getting a sign-on message that says port 300h or whatever when you're using 16-bit IDE is a good clue that you need to configure something. Getting nothing at all is not.

                  Comment


                    Maybe we can suggest a best of both worlds? Default images have a config flag set so the bios displays a "not configured" message, then continues the boot process without doing anything. Images would have a valid checksum so the message appears at boot up, but nothing actually happens to risk locking up the machine and prevent it from booting.

                    As the project has matured and the userbase grown, the knowledge level of the common/least skilled user has dropped significantly to the point that this is almost a retail product.

                    Some allowances may be needed now for users where 5 years ago everyone involved would know things. EEPROM flashing on board was for convenience, but it took away the entry requirement of owning certain equipment, as an example.
                    Last edited by TheDrip; March 30, 2021, 05:57 AM.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by srm View Post
                      thats exactly the case.
                      on the webpage it is explicitly stated that i need to fill up the image with zeros, which i did.
                      Reading that now I realize that sentence is incorrect. What matters is that the blocks occupied by the BIOS (as defined by the block count in the third byte of the BIOS) matches the checksum. The rest of the ROM could just as well be filled with junk and it shouldn't matter.

                      It is not stated anywhere on the official site, that its necessary to run xtidecfg before being able to build this.
                      Maybe this has been mentioned before, but no one is looking up 60 pages in the forum before downloading and installing it.
                      It's obvious that you're supposed to use XTIDECFG since a large part of the front page describes the use of the configurator and all of its options. Another hint is that there's a file called XTIDECFG.COM together with the BIOS binaries in the download section.

                      Have you ever installed a DOS game? Then there's a good chance that you had to run some kind of setup program to configure the sound etc. This is not that different in my opinion.

                      All this being said, I know the official site and documentation is far from perfect. However, it is possible to register as a user on the site and make improvements if one so wishes - it is a wiki after all.

                      Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post
                      And the take away from my post was that getting a sign-on message that says port 300h or whatever when you're using 16-bit IDE is a good clue that you need to configure something. Getting nothing at all is not.
                      I don't know what you mean by "Getting nothing at all". In that scenario you'll get this;
                      Code:
                      Master at 300h: not found
                      Slave  at 300h: not found
                      Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by TheDrip View Post
                        Maybe we can suggest a best of both worlds? Default images have a config flag set so the bios displays a "not configured" message, then continues the boot process without doing anything. Images would have a valid checksum so the message appears at boot up, but nothing actually happens to risk locking up the machine and prevent it from booting.

                        As the project has matured and the userbase grown, the knowledge level of the common/least skilled user has dropped significantly to the point that this is almost a retail product.

                        Some allowances may be needed now for users where 5 years ago everyone involved would know things. EEPROM flashing on board was for convenience, but it took away the entry requirement of owning certain equipment, as an example.
                        I like the way you put it

                        A notice on the " Pre Built Binaries " download pages should suffice, Something along the lines of " All binaries MUST be properly configured using the XTIDECFG.COM configuration tool FIRST before flashing / Burning to Eprom / EEprom ".

                        Probably easier to implement rather than adding more code to the binaries. Checksumming non-configured binaries is pointless IMO.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Krille View Post
                          I don't know what you mean by "Getting nothing at all". In that scenario you'll get this;
                          Code:
                          Master at 300h: not found
                          Slave  at 300h: not found
                          Right and when I see that I'm going to think to myself: "why is it looking at port 300h when my drives are at 170h... hmm maybe I need to change a setting." Versus no sign on which could mean bad flash, bad hardware, anything at all really.

                          Additionally what about the scenario where you do use the configuration tool, open up the binary, see it's already configured properly for your use case, and then don't bother to save it? It needs to be made explicit in the docs that the config tool is responsible for checksumming the binary, especially since the older official releases were pre checksummed which adds even more confusion if you are upgrading

                          Comment


                            Alright, I've updated the front page wiki. Let me know what you think.
                            Looking for a cache card for the "ICL ErgoPRO C4/66d V"

                            Comment


                              I approve

                              Comment


                                I like it, thanks for adding

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X