Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules and Etiquette

Our mission ...

This forum is part of our mission to promote the preservation of vintage computers through education and outreach. (In real life we also run events and have a museum.) We encourage you to join us, participate, share your knowledge, and enjoy.

This forum has been around in this format for over 15 years. These rules and guidelines help us maintain a healthy and active community, and we moderate the forum to keep things on track. Please familiarize yourself with these rules and guidelines.


Rule 1: Remain civil and respectful

There are several hundred people who actively participate here. People come from all different backgrounds and will have different ways of seeing things. You will not agree with everything you read here. Back-and-forth discussions are fine but do not cross the line into rude or disrespectful behavior.

Conduct yourself as you would at any other place where people come together in person to discuss their hobby. If you wouldn't say something to somebody in person, then you probably should not be writing it here.

This should be obvious but, just in case: profanity, threats, slurs against any group (sexual, racial, gender, etc.) will not be tolerated.


Rule 2: Stay close to the original topic being discussed
  • If you are starting a new thread choose a reasonable sub-forum to start your thread. (If you choose incorrectly don't worry, we can fix that.)
  • If you are responding to a thread, stay on topic - the original poster was trying to achieve something. You can always start a new thread instead of potentially "hijacking" an existing thread.



Rule 3: Contribute something meaningful

To put things in engineering terms, we value a high signal to noise ratio. Coming here should not be a waste of time.
  • This is not a chat room. If you are taking less than 30 seconds to make a post then you are probably doing something wrong. A post should be on topic, clear, and contribute something meaningful to the discussion. If people read your posts and feel that their time as been wasted, they will stop reading your posts. Worse yet, they will stop visiting and we'll lose their experience and contributions.
  • Do not bump threads.
  • Do not "necro-post" unless you are following up to a specific person on a specific thread. And even then, that person may have moved on. Just start a new thread for your related topic.
  • Use the Private Message system for posts that are targeted at a specific person.


Rule 4: "PM Sent!" messages (or, how to use the Private Message system)

This forum has a private message feature that we want people to use for messages that are not of general interest to other members.

In short, if you are going to reply to a thread and that reply is targeted to a specific individual and not of interest to anybody else (either now or in the future) then send a private message instead.

Here are some obvious examples of when you should not reply to a thread and use the PM system instead:
  • "PM Sent!": Do not tell the rest of us that you sent a PM ... the forum software will tell the other person that they have a PM waiting.
  • "How much is shipping to ....": This is a very specific and directed question that is not of interest to anybody else.


Why do we have this policy? Sending a "PM Sent!" type message basically wastes everybody else's time by making them having to scroll past a post in a thread that looks to be updated, when the update is not meaningful. And the person you are sending the PM to will be notified by the forum software that they have a message waiting for them. Look up at the top near the right edge where it says 'Notifications' ... if you have a PM waiting, it will tell you there.

Rule 5: Copyright and other legal issues

We are here to discuss vintage computing, so discussing software, books, and other intellectual property that is on-topic is fine. We don't want people using these forums to discuss or enable copyright violations or other things that are against the law; whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. Do not use our resources for something that is legally or morally questionable.

Our discussions here generally fall under "fair use." Telling people how to pirate a software title is an example of something that is not allowable here.


Reporting problematic posts

If you see spam, a wildly off-topic post, or something abusive or illegal please report the thread by clicking on the "Report Post" icon. (It looks like an exclamation point in a triangle and it is available under every post.) This send a notification to all of the moderators, so somebody will see it and deal with it.

If you are unsure you may consider sending a private message to a moderator instead.


New user moderation

New users are directly moderated so that we can weed spammers out early. This means that for your first 10 posts you will have some delay before they are seen. We understand this can be disruptive to the flow of conversation and we try to keep up with our new user moderation duties to avoid undue inconvenience. Please do not make duplicate posts, extra posts to bump your post count, or ask the moderators to expedite this process; 10 moderated posts will go by quickly.

New users also have a smaller personal message inbox limit and are rate limited when sending PMs to other users.


Other suggestions
  • Use Google, books, or other definitive sources. There is a lot of information out there.
  • Don't make people guess at what you are trying to say; we are not mind readers. Be clear and concise.
  • Spelling and grammar are not rated, but they do make a post easier to read.
See more
See less

DOS / Win 3.11 Networking Question

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    DOS / Win 3.11 Networking Question

    If Windows 3.11 is installed along with a DOS install, is there any good reason to install DOS Networking if you have networking setup in Windows 3.11?

    To move things around my retro network, I'd obviously use Windows and then switch back to DOS when needed, but I was curious if there were any reasons where installing DOS networking would be necessary as well?
    "In Life, The Days Are Long But The Years Are Short..."

    #2
    I'd say you've got it covered.
    PM me if you're looking for 3" or 5" floppy disks. EMail For everything else, Take Another Step

    Comment


      #3
      Probably depends on what protocols you want to use. Windows has the main ones of the time covered (IPX, NetBUEI, TCP/IP), so I doubt you'd need anything else, unless you want to network DOOM or some other DOS game.

      Comment


        #4
        IIRC if you install windows networking then you only have networking devices setup in windows and a dos box. However, if you install networking under dos then run windows you have access to the network everywhere. I generally install client under dos and map shares in autoexec. Then in windows I have access to the networked drives as well.
        Current Wish List: 1. IBM 7531 Industrial Series PC 2. NEC MultiSync XL (JC-2001) Monitor 3. MicroSolutions UniDOS card 4. Compaq 14" VGA CRT Monitor (the one that came with the SystemPro). 5. Stacker HW CoProcessor Board MCA BUS. If you have any of the above for sale please PM me. Thank you!

        Comment


          #5
          WFW 3.11 adds a "net start" command to your autoexec.bat which activates the network services in DOS before loading windows IIRC

          the vast majority of LAN-aware DOS games use IPX/SPX

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by maxtherabbit View Post
            WFW 3.11 adds a "net start" command to your autoexec.bat which activates the network services in DOS before loading windows IIRC
            I think that starts the services needed by both DOS and windows but I don't believe mapping and shares done under windows persist in pure dos. I could be wrong though it has been a while since I have setup WfW.

            As far as games are concerned that is true for the majority of games before the internet "took off". You may need to use utils like Kali to get IPX to TCP redirection. After the internet most games either supported both or just TCP.
            Current Wish List: 1. IBM 7531 Industrial Series PC 2. NEC MultiSync XL (JC-2001) Monitor 3. MicroSolutions UniDOS card 4. Compaq 14" VGA CRT Monitor (the one that came with the SystemPro). 5. Stacker HW CoProcessor Board MCA BUS. If you have any of the above for sale please PM me. Thank you!

            Comment


              #7
              Doing a 'net logon' and mapping drives takes a lot of conventional DOS memory. Unless you have to do it, best to load the network under Windows.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by resman View Post
                Doing a 'net logon' and mapping drives takes a lot of conventional DOS memory. Unless you have to do it, best to load the network under Windows.
                It take a bit more but not necessarily impossible amounts and personally I love having mapped drives under DOS. It gives me easy access to utilities, programs, etc. Specially since many times I won't even bother installing Windows on a vintage system....
                Current Wish List: 1. IBM 7531 Industrial Series PC 2. NEC MultiSync XL (JC-2001) Monitor 3. MicroSolutions UniDOS card 4. Compaq 14" VGA CRT Monitor (the one that came with the SystemPro). 5. Stacker HW CoProcessor Board MCA BUS. If you have any of the above for sale please PM me. Thank you!

                Comment


                  #9
                  My personal preference is INTERSVR/LNK for DOS networking over serial (nullmodem) or parallel (LapLink). Or FastLynx over the same topologies or ethernet with LSL / NE2000 / IPX (NetWare / Lite stack in DOS). Most late DOS games support nullmodem and IPX. Later on TCP/IP became the standard.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Shadow Lord View Post
                    It take a bit more but not necessarily impossible amounts and personally I love having mapped drives under DOS. It gives me easy access to utilities, programs, etc. Specially since many times I won't even bother installing Windows on a vintage system....
                    I have found programs that won't load on my 286 with the MS network client loaded under DOS. I agree that it is *very* useful to have drives mapped under DOS (especially when installing programs over the net). I created a batch file to do all the dirty work instead of loading it in AUTOEXEC.BAT for the best of both worlds. But, since this was for WfW 3.11, it's pretty much a given that this is a 386+ and much can be done in a DOS window.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by PeterNC View Post
                      My personal preference is INTERSVR/LNK for DOS networking over serial (nullmodem) or parallel (LapLink). Or FastLynx over the same topologies or ethernet with LSL / NE2000 / IPX (NetWare / Lite stack in DOS). Most late DOS games support nullmodem and IPX. Later on TCP/IP became the standard.
                      If you don't mind running a Linux server EtherDFS is a lightweight ethernet-based option for network drives under DOS on machines too weak to run Windows 3.1's networking stack. For that matter the "NC" program from the mTCP suite can be used as a quick-and-dirty sneakernet replacement that only requires the packet driver be loaded. I use that all the time to shoot files from my MacBook to the Tandy 1000.
                      My Retro-computing YouTube Channel (updates... eventually?): Paleozoic PCs Also: Blogspot

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Unet and Unet II will run on almost anything... including a 5150 with 256k. It uses parallel ports.

                        http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthrea...936#post612936
                        PM me if you're looking for 3" or 5" floppy disks. EMail For everything else, Take Another Step

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I'd probably prefer setting up networking in DOS, due to the convenience of having it there all the time. However some of the files, particularly TCP/IP, took a lot of memory. The other huge problem was that if your network connection was lost (such as unplugging the ethernet cable), you'd have to reboot the computer to get it to start up again. Also, the only speeds available at the time were 10Mb and 100Mb - none of this gigabit business.

                          Back in my IT days I used to set up networks in DOS all the time for our users. But, with the passage of time, I've forgotten it all, the tricks of the trade. Plus, I never thought to save the network driver files and the config settings and so on. I've got a couple of 386-based computers which I'd like to put on my network, but I can't remember what to do any more. What's even worse is that most network cards didn't even have a brand or model number on them. The chance of finding the right driver is rather remote.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Robbbert View Post
                            Back in my IT days I used to set up networks in DOS all the time for our users. But, with the passage of time, I've forgotten it all, the tricks of the trade. Plus, I never thought to save the network driver files and the config settings and so on. I've got a couple of 386-based computers which I'd like to put on my network, but I can't remember what to do any more. What's even worse is that most network cards didn't even have a brand or model number on them. The chance of finding the right driver is rather remote.
                            There's plenty of 16-bit ISA cards that are configurable from a floppy disk. So you don't really need to remember or have anything else.
                            PM me if you're looking for 3" or 5" floppy disks. EMail For everything else, Take Another Step

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Robbbert View Post
                              I'd probably prefer setting up networking in DOS, due to the convenience of having it there all the time. However some of the files, particularly TCP/IP, took a lot of memory.
                              I am not sure why everyone thinks this is true. Yes, it takes a bit of memory but really not that much. Not enough to give up the convenience anyhow. Below is a

                              MEM /C output from one of my currently running systems (a G2K 386SX-16 w/ 8 MB of RAM with MS-DOS 6.22).

                              Code:
                              Modules using memory below 1 MB:
                              
                                Name           Total       =   Conventional   +   Upper Memory
                                --------  ----------------   ----------------   ----------------
                                SYSTEM       4,189    (4K)   1,032,44 (1,008K   4,293,93 (4,193,
                                QEMM386        784    (1K)        784    (1K)          0    (0K)
                                CSP          5,376    (5K)      5,376    (5K)          0    (0K)
                                4DOS         4,768    (5K)        272    (0K)      4,496    (4K)
                                2M           5,280    (5K)      5,280    (5K)          0    (0K)
                                UMB            960    (1K)        272    (0K)        688    (1K)
                                TCPTSR      43,552   (43K)        272    (0K)     43,280   (42K)
                                TINYRFC      2,672    (3K)        272    (0K)      2,400    (2K)
                                NMTSR        6,048    (6K)      6,048    (6K)          0    (0K)
                                EMSBFR       1,184    (1K)      1,184    (1K)          0    (0K)
                                BASIC       13,760   (13K)     13,760   (13K)          0    (0K)
                                CLOCK        2,272    (2K)          0    (0K)      2,272    (2K)
                                FILES        2,096    (2K)          0    (0K)      2,096    (2K)
                                FCBS            96    (0K)          0    (0K)         96    (0K)
                                WKBUFFER       528    (1K)          0    (0K)        528    (1K)
                                LASTDRIV     2,304    (2K)          0    (0K)      2,304    (2K)
                                INSTALL        160    (0K)          0    (0K)        160    (0K)
                                UNIVESA      9,072    (9K)          0    (0K)      9,072    (9K)
                                2MDOS        2,624    (3K)          0    (0K)      2,624    (3K)
                                NCACHE2     16,400   (16K)          0    (0K)     16,400   (16K)
                                NCACHE2     12,736   (12K)          0    (0K)     12,736   (12K)
                                4DOS24H2     2,464    (2K)          0    (0K)      2,464    (2K)
                                DMGPARK        768    (1K)          0    (0K)        768    (1K)
                                CTMOUSE      3,104    (3K)          0    (0K)      3,104    (3K)
                                SMARTCAN    10,144   (10K)          0    (0K)     10,144   (10K)
                                NET            400    (0K)          0    (0K)        400    (0K)
                                NET         11,264   (11K)          0    (0K)     11,264   (11K)
                                NET          1,328    (1K)          0    (0K)      1,328    (1K)
                                NET          2,160    (2K)          0    (0K)      2,160    (2K)
                                NCDRVTSR     1,072    (1K)          0    (0K)      1,072    (1K)
                                DOS-UP         224    (0K)          0    (0K)        224    (0K)
                                DOSDATA      5,296    (5K)          0    (0K)      5,296    (5K)
                                NANSI        3,536    (3K)          0    (0K)      3,536    (3K)
                                IFSHLP       4,016    (4K)          0    (0K)      4,016    (4K)
                                XMSDSK         688    (1K)          0    (0K)        688    (1K)
                                Free       674,672  (659K)    617,392  (603K)     57,280   (56K)
                              
                              Memory Summary:
                              
                                Type of Memory       Total   =    Used    +    Free
                                ----------------  ----------   ----------   ----------
                                Conventional         655,360       37,968      617,392
                                Upper             4,294,141,   4,294,084,       57,280
                                Reserved             262,144      262,144            0
                                Extended (XMS)     8,296,464    5,888,016    2,408,448
                                ----------------  ----------   ----------   ----------
                                Total memory       8,388,608    5,305,488    3,083,120
                              
                                Total under 1 MB  4,294,797,   4,294,122,      674,672
                              
                                Total Expanded (EMS)                 7,634,944 (7,456K)
                                Free Expanded (EMS)                  2,408,448 (2,352K)
                                Largest executable program size        616,832   (602K)
                                Largest free upper memory block         51,952    (51K)
                                MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.
                              With networking, sound card, ram disk, cache, and other superfluous utilities loaded I have 603K free. I remember at best being able to have 610KB or maybe 625KB (I forget if it was 625000 bytes free or 625K free) back in the day with no networking, and no superfluous utilities (sound card, ram disk, etc.) loaded. I am happy to give up 8 to 13KB of free conventional memory for the convenience and power of LAN and all other my utilities. I also can't recall a program that would run in 625K free but not in 603KB. Just my two cents....
                              Current Wish List: 1. IBM 7531 Industrial Series PC 2. NEC MultiSync XL (JC-2001) Monitor 3. MicroSolutions UniDOS card 4. Compaq 14" VGA CRT Monitor (the one that came with the SystemPro). 5. Stacker HW CoProcessor Board MCA BUS. If you have any of the above for sale please PM me. Thank you!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X