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Vintage PC networking question

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DreadStorm

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I'm asking now before I get started, to avoid issues.

I have a several PCs, one of each generation, that I plan to eventually network together. What I need to know is what PC can handle what speed? And if not at all? Here is something like a worksheet I've been using to plan ahead:

80486DX-33 EISA 10/100mbps Ethernet
80386DX-33 10/100mbps Ethernet
80386SX-20 10mbps Ethernet
80286-12 10mbps Ethernet
8086-10 Unknown

Using a standard 10/100 Ethernet 8-port RJ45 switch.

Are the estimates correct, or should these be knocked down/not networked at all? Since I didn't really get into the PC area until around the 486-100 stage, I'm not sure what the network capabilities of the older hardware would be. Any ideas?
 
They can all be networked but you may not want them to be continously networked. Network drivers tended to be fairly big compared to DOS's memory space leaving little room for the applications you want to use. Reboot with network drivers only for the duration of data transfer. The place I worked at around 1990 used an IBM XT as a networked print server so all your systems are more than capable of networking.

Speed: the network cards you used will all be running slow compared to their rated speed. Remember the early MFM hard drives had data transfer rates of about 5mbps. Only the EISA box if it possesses higher end SCSI will be able to sustain more than 10mbps. Check your cards documentation; if it has problems with slower CPUs and needs to be forced into a slower mode, the documentation should mention it. Some 10mbps and 100mbps cards had both memory and CPU on board. Those cards would send packets at the high rated speed but might have to wait seconds between having packets ready to send.
 
I think your choices will be made for you based on the availability of cards and drivers. For ISA slots and DOS your only choice is going to be 10mbps Ethernet cards. I don't think I've ever seen a 100mbps card for an ISA slot. You should not have any issues running Ethernet on an XT class machine. (Except memory, as krebizfan noted.)
 
The 80486DX/4-100 has a 3COM 16-Bit 10/100, and I was initially planning to hunt for a couple more. But given these facts, it would probably be best for all those 33 & under to stay with 10. But that presents an issue itself, doesn't it? Will the "modern" switches handle that low speed?

I'm now considering the thought that perhaps the lower machines need their own slower network, then bridged to the modern one. Finding network hardware isn't much of an issue - except 8-bit cards.

The only networking I know anything about is standard Ethernet. The other options (Token Ring, etc) I know nothing about.

But to answer, no they won't be on continuously. Once in a while for "keep-alive" runs, or the occasional data transfer at most. Except for the rare occasion when someone wants to see them in action. My basement isn't crowded with a lot of computers, but once set up, a good bit of wall space will be used. I took the smart way out though, and opted for a KVM for 'em. heh

I have "duplicate" systems of the occasional oldie for general use, but these classics won't be used all that much.
 
I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. It really is very simple.

My oldest machines (4.77Mhz) have whatever network cards I can get for them. Those are usually older 8 bit cards that are designed for 10Mb/sec Ethernet. One of my "cards" is actually a device that hangs off the parallel port and pretends to be an Ethernet card. As far as the Ethernet is concerned it is an Ethernet card, and from the perspective of the software it is an Ethernet card too. But it's not a physical card, and the interface through the parallel port makes it slower in real life.

If you plug an older Ethernet card into a network switch the network switch will auto-negotiate the speed of the wire to that card. So you can have a mixed network with 10Mb/sec, 100Mb/sec, or even 1Gb/sec devices on it. The network switch hides the differences. They all do a minimal amount of 'store and forward', so if a faster Ethernet card sends a frame to a slower one, the switch automatically buffers it and transmits it.

I think that all switches will auto-negotiate speed down to 10Mb/sec correctly. You should have no problems there.

The other concern is the PC and software side - is the machine fast enough to keep up with the network traffic? In almost all cases the answer is "Yes" - TCP/IP includes flow control algorithms so that a faster machine should not overrun a slower machine. I routinely put my 4.77Mhz PCjr with the horribly slow Xircom parallel-port Ethernet adapter up against my quad-core Intel machine. TCP/IP takes care of the flow control.

In most cases the packets coming in 'off the wire' will generate an interrupt and be stored in memory on the receiving machine. That is the function of the packet driver and software. So even if your machine is busy doing something else and not actively processing packets you will not lose any data. In severe cases you can run out of buffer space and then new packets will get dropped, which usually causes things to slow down because the lost packets must be sent again. At this point it becomes highly software dependent. I designed my TCP/IP software to be able to handle things like that, but on a very busy network you can still overrun a slow machine. Your mileage will vary.

If you are using software that requires packet drivers (WATTCP/mTCP) then the memory requirement for the packet driver is very minimal - usually no more than 8 to 12KB. If you use something bigger, like the MS LAN client over TCP/IP then you will lose a lot of available memory.

I routinely use my old machines for FTP, IRC and Telnet. FTP beats the hell out of sneakernet ...

Mike
 
Okay, so I'm over-thinking again. Figures. It's a bad habit. heh
Well, that does make things simpler - especially since that batch of 8 computers won't be used often, much less on anything critical. On with the show...!

<grinz> Although, having those 8 on an older network architecture, and bridged to a newer one using another server would be a worthy project.
For another time, of course.
 
Well, since you bring it up ...

I have my older hardware isolated on a 10Mb/sec hub. The hub is connected to a 10/100Mb/sec switch which connects the rest of the house. The 10Mb/sec hub provides plenty of ports for my older hardware to use. Hubs are terrible for performance - they don't do store and forward like switches do, so you can get collisions with a hub, just as though you were using ThickNet or ThinNet. However I rarely run those machines at the same time, so a hub is not a performance problem.

One of the benefits of the older hub is the ThinNet connection. Normally I use twisted pair, but if I have a network card that uses ThinNet I can still directly connect it to the network.



Mike
 
That fits with what I have, sort of. I have an 8-port 10/100/1000 gigabit switch for the house, and an 8-port 10/100 hub. The hub will be used with these older 8 machines.
 
all my vintage IBM-Systems are connected through a vintage Netware 3.2 Server with a modern Windows XP ( The last system with bindery-support ). My PC/XT have a 3COM 3c503 NIC ( 8-Bit ) and the rest of my vintage-systems 3c509 ( ISA ), 3c523B ( MCA ), 3c579 ( EISA ), DE-510CAT ( VLB ). I use Netware 3.2 ( 486DX50 EISA, 128MB-Ram, SCSI ) because it is also vintage, and the network-driver for my old DOS System are really small and fast. My Netware-Server is a print-server and I use it as a backup-server for my vintage software-collection with additional tape backup. With exception of my 5150 all drivers a on the harddrives. For my 5150 I have a small bootdisk ( 360kb ) with the the driver on it. With this configuration, I have access to my vintage software and printers with all the vintage PCs.
This configuration works fine for me and I have learned a lot of old network techniques ( 10base2 ) and netware-server configuration.
 
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MaTel said:
all my vintage IBM-Systems are connected through a vintage Netware 3.2 Server with a modern Windows XP ( The last system with bindery-support ). My PC/XT have a 3COM 3c503 NIC ( 8-Bit ) and the rest of my vintage-systems 3c509 ( ISA ), 3c523B ( MCA ), 3c579 ( EISA ), DE-510CAT ( VLB ). I use Netware 3.2 ( 486DX50 EISA, 128MB-Ram, SCSI ) because it is also vintage, and the network-driver for my old DOS System are really small and fast. My Netware-Server is a print-server and I use it as a backup-server for my vintage software-collection with additional tape backup. With exception of my 5150 all drivers a on the harddrives. For my 5150 I have a small bootdisk ( 360kb ) with the the driver on it. With this configuration, I have access to my vintage software and printers with all the vintage PCs.
This configuration works fine for me and I have learned a lot of old network techniques ( 10base2 ) and netware-server configuration.
Click to expand...

Man, you post is just epic, at it is BEGGING for you to post some photos to make it glorious. :cool:
 
I've done this before, this is typically the way I set those machines up

8088-286 - 10mbps Network Cards, for either BUS Slot they can be 8 or 16 bit ISA, as many of the 16-bit cards have an 8-bit Operating Mode, in particular, the SMC 8013+, 3COM EtherLInk II series, and the Intel EtherExpress 16. All of these boxes run DOS 6.x to allow me to run a multiple boot configuration at startup so as to keep network out of memory unless I really need it (that's why my 286 has 10 startup options). I typically do networking through Microsoft Network Client or Network Manager 3.0, and do internet through a Packet Driver for my NIC, all loaded by individual startup options in DOS 6.x, usually 6.22. For file shares, I often create batch files that create and copy programs/data/stuff to the old machines over the network - so all I have to do is connect to the file share. Using MSNC or MSLM 3.0, 8088's can only use IPX/SPX and NetBEUI protocols as the TCP/IP Stack in MSNC and MSLM requires a 80286 processor or better to run.

386-486 - 10mbps or in the case of the 486, sometimes 100mbps if it has a PCI bus. Pretty much any ISA card will work with these boxes, and most PCI cards will too with the 486s that have PCI. Networking on these is usually done through Windows For Workgroups 3.11, though I did have a Compaq Deskpro 386 using Microsoft Network Client 3.0 at one time. The reason I use WFWG is because of the GUI and it allows some better file management of large numbers of files without batch files, and it tends to be happy on a TCP/IP network with machines through Windows XP.

If you are running Vista or 7 64 bit on your modern box, file management on the TCP/IP Equpiied boxes can be done via read/write permissions on the old box, and performing the management on the modern box.

For IPX/SPX/NetBEUI, you will need a 32-bit machine with an O/S capable of using those protocols in order for the computers to talk to each other, as there are no 64-bit NetBEUI or IPX/SPX protocols for Win Vista/7.
 
Caluser2000 said:
I believe SneakerNet is still used.
Click to expand...
Very funny! Not just floppies either - could be moving files from one computer to another with a memory stick.

Terry Yager: And leave us not overlook ARCNet (for those Trash-80 etc. folk who're feeling neglected)...
Click to expand...

I'll mention again. I've got lots of Arcnet cards and active hubs. Even Novelle Netware for 286 if anybody wants to have it before it melts into a thick soup of electronics with a few undissolved chips and caps floating in it. I'm fully expecting some retrotronic monster to come crawling out of the primordial soup in my basement any day now.
 
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