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interfacing with old computers

V

vic user

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Joined
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I thought I would pop this into a new thread:

CP/M user wrote:

Sounds neat. This reminds me, when did Plotters
go out? I always thought they were a valuable
piece of hardware, which are far superior to an
Inkjet printer, yet people are replacing them for
that.

>> Oh dear! :)

> I hope that is a good 'oh dear' about my robotic
> vic 20 hopes :)

Well yeah, I was thinking in terms of a Vic20 being
more than capable of doing something like that to
your latest IBM. It kinda goes back to what I said
about Plotters & Inkjet printers, as I feel a Plotter
would produce a more accurate image vs an Inkjet.
However, Inkjets do vary in quality, yet it doesn't
stop it from doing what it does which is spray the
colours onto the paper, which is why I felt that a
Plotter is superior. Any thoughts on that?

But just getting back to your Vic20, yeah that was
a good Oh dear hence the smiley! :)

Cheers,
CP/M User.

-----


It's funny that you mention plotters, because I work with large format printers, and for some crazy reason, most people at my work keep calling them plotters. Perhaps it is because they are big or something :) And yep, the printers are inkjet.

And we have many quality issues at work, in regards to exactly what you mentioned, in terms of how an inkjet gets the ink onto the paper. Also have UV fading issues as well.

Neat that you mention that plotters are more accurate, as one of our main criteria for producing products off of the printers, is image accuracy. (I am in charge of the Print On Demand shop at my work, where we produce nautical charts.)

I don't know why plotters are not popular anymore, or at least I don't see many around.

As for my vic 20 - robot thing, my first project I wish to tackle, is to hook up a digital thermometer to my vic 20 (I am assuming via RS232), and then have the vic record outside temperatures, on regular time intervals. I was thinking of using the vic's internal time counter.


Chris
 
Do they still make the pens fr H-P 74xx series plotters? Anybody know of a source fr them? Mebbe thats why nobody uses them anymore...can't get consumables fr 'em.
Speaking of pens, is there any source these days for the tiny little ball-point pens that go in those lil ol Tandy or Commodore 4-pen plotters? I also have an ol Panasonic printer/plotter/typewriter that takes a similar type of pen, but not exactly the same. The pens from a Tandy plotter don't quite fit in the Panasonic thinggy, although they look 'bout the same.

--T
 
I know there was a relatively recent (about a month ago), message thread on comp.sys.cmb, where someone was asking about plotter pens and where to get new ones etc..

There was a lot of replies to his original post, although I didn't read any :)

Chris
 
Re: interfacing with old computers

vic user said:
I thought I would pop this into a new thread:

CP/M user wrote:

Sounds neat. This reminds me, when did Plotters
go out? I always thought they were a valuable
piece of hardware, which are far superior to an
Inkjet printer, yet people are replacing them for
that.

<snip>

Well yeah, I was thinking in terms of a Vic20 being
more than capable of doing something like that to
your latest IBM. It kinda goes back to what I said
about Plotters & Inkjet printers, as I feel a Plotter
would produce a more accurate image vs an Inkjet.
However, Inkjets do vary in quality, yet it doesn't
stop it from doing what it does which is spray the
colours onto the paper, which is why I felt that a
Plotter is superior. Any thoughts on that?

Cheers,
CP/M User.

-----

Modern inkjet printers do shoot out a drop of ink that is much smaller than the tip of a pen, therefore as far as accuracy in imaging goes, the finer resolution of the inkjet should make for a more accurate image. The printer I just bought last week has a horizontal resolution of 2400 dpi, which is a very small dot, but I do know that 4800 dpi printers are available, and mebbe even finer resolutions fr all I know.

--T
Click to expand...
 
Terry Yager said:
Do they still make the pens fr H-P 74xx series plotters? Anybody know of a source fr them? Mebbe thats why nobody uses them anymore...can't get consumables fr 'em.
Speaking of pens, is there any source these days for the tiny little ball-point pens that go in those lil ol Tandy or Commodore 4-pen plotters? I also have an ol Panasonic printer/plotter/typewriter that takes a similar type of pen, but not exactly the same. The pens from a Tandy plotter don't quite fit in the Panasonic thinggy, although they look 'bout the same.

--T
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not a plotter expert, but can't you just get the pens refilled with standard printer ink? Get one of those syringes filled with ink from the inkjet-refill places in the mall.

I saw an old HP plotter at a flea market once, but upon considering it, it was bigger than the car. And probably cost more...
 
Didnt some people replace the pens with razor tips to cut out designs in whatever material they used?

I remember back in the 90's one mechanical engineer purchased an old hp plotter they we never used for anything (I had purchased a large inkjet for cad prints we used before he showed up).

Most economical plotters are very slow, cant do high resolution, cant tell you when the pen runs dry, are noisy, and take up quite a bit of space.

Besides they cant blend colors like inkjets do (boss printed a huge james dean poster one day for the heck of it on the inkjet).
 
Re: interfacing with old computers

"vic user" wrote:

> I thought I would pop this into a new thread:

Well that was very naughty of you! ;-)

>> Sounds neat. This reminds me, when did Plotters
>> go out? I always thought they were a valuable
>> piece of hardware, which are far superior to an
>> Inkjet printer, yet people are replacing them for
>> that.

>> Well yeah, I was thinking in terms of a Vic20 being
>> more than capable of doing something like that to
>> your latest IBM. It kinda goes back to what I said
>> about Plotters & Inkjet printers, as I feel a Plotter
>> would produce a more accurate image vs an Inkjet.
>> However, Inkjets do vary in quality, yet it doesn't
>> stop it from doing what it does which is spray the
>> colours onto the paper, which is why I felt that a
>> Plotter is superior. Any thoughts on that?

>> But just getting back to your Vic20, yeah that was
>> a good Oh dear hence the smiley! :)

> It's funny that you mention plotters, because I work
> with large format printers, and for some crazy reason,
> most people at my work keep calling them plotters.
> Perhaps it is because they are big or something :)
> And yep, the printers are inkjet.

I don't know how true this statement is, though when I
was in tertary learning about computers I was told that
a plotter doesn't qualify as a printer, I can't remember
why they assumed this, I never owned a plotter, but
the only reason I can think why they said a plotter
doesn't qualify as a printer, is because it's designed to
be more for graphics rather than Text (which is what
a printer can do).

The only plotters I've seen have been quite small, I've
never seen an industrual plotter (if they do exist).

> And we have many quality issues at work, in regards
> to exactly what you mentioned, in terms of how an
> inkjet gets the ink onto the paper. Also have UV
> fading issues as well.

Well, I learned a little bit about the method. The bloke
I met who used to have a plotter is an archiect (?) so
obviously used the plotter for building structures,
however they were happy with their Inkjet, so obviously
the accuracy isn't as important to him as I thought.

I haven't seen any Plotter been sold brand new either
in recent times, however, someone must be still
making them, based on my views of it's accuracy.

Can't remember if I'd mentioned this, but my Inkjet was
only a cheap one the time I got it, but even though there
are pricier ones, the fact they spray the ink onto the
paper, means there's that degree of accuracy which is
questionable.

> Neat that you mention that plotters are more
> accurate, as one of our main criteria for producing
> products off of the printers, is image accuracy.
> (I am in charge of the Print On Demand shop at my
> work, where we produce nautical charts.)

> I don't know why plotters are not popular anymore,
> or at least I don't see many around.

I can only guess that plotters have lost it's appeal due
to price. Whenever I was looking through the second
hand stuff people were selling, people there were
selling plotter in the high hundreds to low thousands,
so a brand new plotter I can only assume costed a
couple of grand, based on what sort of plotter you
wanted.

I've never seen a plotter do text either, but then I've
never seen every single plotter in operation, so I'm
assuming there were some out there which could do
this.

> As for my vic 20 - robot thing, my first project I
> wish to tackle, is to hook up a digital thermometer
> to my vic 20 (I am assuming via RS232), and then
> have the vic record outside temperatures, on regular
> time intervals. I was thinking of using the vic's
> internal time counter.

Does the Vic20 have a RS232 as standard?

That's one of the sad limitations of my Amstrad,
even though you could buy such a item for it, but
it's just annoying it didn't come as standard.

Cheers,
CP/M User.
 
Re: interfacing with old computers

"Terry Yager" wrote:

> Modern inkjet printers do shoot out a drop of
> ink that is much smaller than the tip of a pen,
> therefore as far as accuracy in imaging goes,
> the finer resolution of the inkjet should make
> for a more accurate image. The printer I just
> bought last week has a horizontal resolution
> of 2400 dpi, which is a very small dot, but I
> do know that 4800 dpi printers are available,
> and mebbe even finer resolutions fr all I know.

As far as resolution goes, I think that's a good
excuse for less accuracy, because of the
resolution being higher, then more spraying is
required! :)

The resolution maybe higher on a plotter, but
in the areas planning in constuction, engeerining
accuracy of an plan would have to superseed
the detail of something.

No, I'm not convinced that an Inkjet could ever
have the same amount of accuracy that a
plotter could have (even if the detail is higher),
based on the inks method of disposal.

Cheers,
CP/M User.
 
last place I worked used a very large HP injet for all prints, if you printed to scale (did that for some burner parts) the pieces were exactly the same size as the real parts layed on top of them.

Anyway nobody grabs a ruler to measure distances on those prints, everything is called out and if it isnt the vender making the parts will ask for the correct dimention in .0005 of an inch if the spec calls for that kind of accuracy (something a plotter could never even hope to do accuratly either).
 
"Unknown_K" wrote:

> Didnt some people replace the pens with razor
> tips to cut out designs in whatever material
> they used?

> I remember back in the 90's one mechanical
> engineer purchased an old hp plotter they we
> never used for anything (I had purchased a
> large inkjet for cad prints we used before he
> showed up).

> Most economical plotters are very slow, cant
> do high resolution, cant tell you when the pen
> runs dry, are noisy, and take up quite a bit of
> space.

That's funny, the one I remember seeing, wasn't
noisy, was good with space. My Inkjet can't tell
tell me how much ink is left in the cartridge & is
also slow! ;-)

> Besides they cant blend colors like inkjets do
> (boss printed a huge james dean poster one
> day for the heck of it on the inkjet).

That's not true, the one I saw only used 3 pens
& used them to produce a larger quanity of
colours, though some of the plotters might be
how you described them, this could also be
based on how old they are.

Though I believe we're talking about two
different industries where two hardware
types are required, which is why I was
shocked to hear that someone in a
construction side of things replaced a plotter
for an Inkjet.

Laser printers I'd reckon would also have
more accuracy over Inkjet, though fall down
on price & maintenance issues (which costs a
bit too).

Cheers,
CP/M User.
 
I havnt seen a pen plotter in operation anyplace I worked since 1991 (all manufacturing facilities one with a machine shop making parts to .001 every day). Everybody uses inkjet or laser printers/plotters for cutaway or assembly prints and 11x17 laser for individual parts (depending on complexity).
 
"Unknown_K" wrote:

> I havnt seen a pen plotter in operation anyplace
> I worked since 1991 (all manufacturing facilities
> one with a machine shop making parts to .001
> every day). Everybody uses inkjet or laser
> printers/plotters for cutaway or assembly prints
> and 11x17 laser for individual parts (depending
> on complexity).

Could you please explain what field of work this
was? You mentioned that your boss printed a
poster, which suggests to me that this place
specialises in graphical imaging. I would reckon
that for a place like that, an Inkjet or Laser is
more important.

Cheers,
CP/M User.
 
CP/M User said:
"Unknown_K" wrote:

> I havnt seen a pen plotter in operation anyplace
> I worked since 1991 (all manufacturing facilities
> one with a machine shop making parts to .001
> every day). Everybody uses inkjet or laser
> printers/plotters for cutaway or assembly prints
> and 11x17 laser for individual parts (depending
> on complexity).

Could you please explain what field of work this
was? You mentioned that your boss printed a
poster, which suggests to me that this place
specialises in graphical imaging. I would reckon
that for a place like that, an Inkjet or Laser is
more important.

Cheers,
CP/M User.
Click to expand...

Manufacturing environment, made process equipment (OEM for all the large wet bench manufacturers). We made prints for parts manufactured in the machineshop (cnc lathes, mills, etc down to .001"). We would joke around with the new QC guys by taking machined teflon parts and put them in some boiling water and then have them check tolerances. Equipment needed to be precise because of interlocking components that would grow quite a bit under heat in the process (quartz tanks in filtered etch baths held inplace by 100% teflon parts is one example)

My boss liked screwing around more then working which is why he made a poster on the inkjet and why he was the first to get fired during the dounturn in the late 90's.

Other place made industrial burners,gas flowtrains, controls for large metal furnaces, oven, and glass melters mostly did layouts to be sent out to fabricators. Individual tolerences were not as precise as other job, but overall dimensions were critical when your drawing 6" pipe criscrossing a whole facility.

I am a chemical engineer so I specified the process, equipment, materials, pressure drops, controls while the mechanical guys dealt with tolerences, floorplans and cad prints.
 
Re: interfacing with old computers

CP/M User said:
Does the Vic20 have a RS232 as standard?

That's one of the sad limitations of my Amstrad,
even though you could buy such a item for it, but
it's just annoying it didn't come as standard.

Cheers,
CP/M User.
Click to expand...

Kinda. It hand no real UART, serial functionality was accomplished in kernal routines. On top of that, the serial signals were led out the user port as TTL level signals (which I call TTL232), and required a level convertor board to become essentially RS232.
 
plotters et al

plotters et al

There are still a few niche markets for plotters.

Back in my days of working at a fun computer job (read: dealt in used/abused and abandoned equipment) we had a pile of the pen type plotters that we couldn't give away due to the lack of consumables. I can't remember exactly what they were, but they had a rotating "holster" of about 8 pens that would automaticly shift when a new color was needed.
They were about to be busted down for recyclables, when a car buff buddy of mine mentioned them to a guy who does dyno testing on cars.
After much labor putting a few sets of useable pens together and refilling them with a standard inkjet refill kit, he bought all 25 or so we had. His rational was that they were perfect for printing running graphs on good ol' tracktor feed paper (which we always seemed to have in abundance)

The other odd ball plotter story to come out of that shop was a pair of Cal-Comp electrostatic plotters. These were BIG suckers. They sold on ebay for a $100 for the pair but the buyer spent a small fortune shipping them. Infact the only place we could get to touch moving these things was a piano moving company. When I asked the guy what he was using them for the only reply I got was "national defence". I found out recently from one of my techs at my new job that they still use those monsters for printing templates for subs. Not sure how this really sits with me- national defence equipment (reactors and all) being trusted to equipment older than the operators.

-Chris
 
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